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I run a game of Pathfinder 2e that involves a 10th level Alchemist. One issue I have with their build is their systematic use of Greater Camouflage Dye in about any combat situation. The nature of this campaign makes it frequent that not a lot of combat happens during an adventuring day so this player seems to never run of of reagents.

To my understanding Greater Camouflage Dye practically behaves like the heightened Invisibility spell but a few differences make it more problematic:

  • The cost of using a 4th rank spell slot to prepare Invisibility is higher than taking one dose from a batch

  • Using the Dye is only one action (not sure if another is required to hide after use)

  • Many anti-invisibility countermeasures don't work. Unless the monster has something like Tremorsense they are toast.

It there something I misunderstood? If not how do you handle it at your table?

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    \$\begingroup\$ What are they doing after they become invisible? \$\endgroup\$
    – indigochild
    Commented Jul 9 at 17:53
  • \$\begingroup\$ @indigochild throw bombs usually. Sometimes up to 3 per round. \$\endgroup\$
    – Anne Aunyme
    Commented Jul 10 at 1:24
  • \$\begingroup\$ @AnneAunyme Throwing each bomb would make them no longer hidden. Greater Camouflage Dye itself isn't removed on attack (i.e., they can continue spending actions to make hide/stealth checks without cover/concealment), but it doesn't override the baseline rules for the hidden status that state "You cease being hidden if you do anything except Hide, Sneak, or Step." \$\endgroup\$
    – Shivers
    Commented Jul 10 at 6:04

1 Answer 1

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Greater Camouflage Dye does not make you invisible

You are probably being too generous with the effects of Greater Camouflage Dye. It doesn't make you invisible - it just allows you the opportunity to make a Hide/Sneak check when you otherwise wouldn't.

Invisibility says:

Illusions bend light around the target, rendering it invisible. This makes it undetected to all creatures, though the creatures can attempt to find the target, making it hidden to them instead. If the target uses a hostile action, the spell ends after that hostile action is completed.

Invisibility explicitly makes you undetected to all creatures. Contrast this with Greater Camouflage Dye which merely says:

The target can Hide or Sneak without cover or concealment for 10 minutes. If the target uses a hostile action or moves at more than half its Speed, after that action is completed, the effects of camouflage powder end and the creature ceases to be hidden or undetected.

You aren't invisible. You can just attempt to Hide or Sneak, without requiring anything to hide behind.

The player requires multiple actions to make use of this.

You might be too generous with the action economy also. You noted they need to use 1 action to activate Greater Camouflage Dye. At that point the character is standing out in the open completely observed by everyone.

They then need to spend one action to attempt to hide (which requires a stealth check). If they wish to move and remain hidden, they need another stealth check for the Sneak action - which only allows movement at half speed.

Attacking makes you detected.

In a comment you mention that your alchemist uses Greater Camouflage Dye then bombs opponents. Although the Dye stays in effect with a hostile action, the character still needs to use more actions to hide/sneak again.

To keep up with this tactic the character would spend an entire turn throwing a bomb, re-rolling stealth to hide, than stealth again to move.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Under the rules for the invisible condition there is a line, "If you're already observing a creature when it becomes invisible, it starts out hidden, since you know where it was, though it can then Sneak to become undetected.", which makes things a bit more even here. \$\endgroup\$
    – brandon
    Commented Jul 9 at 21:53
  • \$\begingroup\$ @brandon Agreed. For my money, it still means that greater camouflage dye isn't that powerful. You use reagents and an action ... for the chance to be hidden. \$\endgroup\$
    – indigochild
    Commented Jul 9 at 22:26
  • \$\begingroup\$ I'm not even convinced that this is too powerful when used as the OP describes, personally, although clearly the OP is seeing something that's concerning them enough to ask a question. 1 action second rank Invisibility is available to anyone through the invisibility rune: 2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=287. The greater version is 3 times a day and is level 10. All that to say, I worry that there might be something else that OP is getting wrong, aside from the things you correctly point out here. \$\endgroup\$
    – ESCE
    Commented Jul 9 at 23:20
  • \$\begingroup\$ Invisibility runes are more limited; they require light armor and would need to be transferred between armors if a characters swaps out armors. Camouflage Dye also lasts ten minutes to Invis's one minute, so if it's played as invis it's a lot more accessible and lasts longer (in addition to OP treating it as more powerful than invisibility by treating effects like See Invisibility or True Seeing as ineffective). \$\endgroup\$
    – Shivers
    Commented Jul 9 at 23:34
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    \$\begingroup\$ @AnneAunyme The greater version doesn't say you don't need to make checks, it just says the dye doesn't wear off if they take a hostile action or move quickly. They still need to make a check to hide/sneak, and they're still not invisible, just able to make those checks without cover/concealment. You still stop being hidden when you attack (even though the dye itself has not worn off) and will need to re-attempt hiding, as the answer notes. The dye makes hiding/sneaking more accessible, but it does not make the checks easier (in terms of DCs) or inherently make you invisible. \$\endgroup\$
    – Shivers
    Commented Jul 10 at 3:42

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