-36

tl;dr

  • Specific advice was given by the moderator team (as a whole, anonymously).

  • When that advice was subsequently followed, a specific moderator's action explicitly undid it on a specific post, and explicitly blocked me from restoring it.


Context:

  • Update, for clarification:

    • The following applies solely to answers with a negative vote tally, i.e. with a score of -1 or lower, as I believe this to be a crucial threshold with respect to whether future readers pay attention to an answer or not.
    • Any meta commentary should be removed once the vote tally has reached 0, and that is indeed my MO.
  • I try to only post answers that (a) I believe to be helpful and (b) whose efficacy I've verified myself (if I can't do the latter, I'll say so).

  • A few of my answer have a negative vote tally either not accompanied by feedback as to why they may fall short or with no follow-up feedback after the initial feedback was addressed (whether via a comment and/or via amending the answer).

  • I've examined those answers, and have not found a problem - but I'm always happy to take in specific feedback.

  • In the absence of such, I assume the - assumed by me to be unwarranted - down-votes to be a disservice to the community: they send the wrong signal, potentially causing future readers miss out on helpful answer that they might disregard out of hand due to their negative score.

    • If someone's tempted to think this is about reputation: it isn't; on the contrary: deleting down-voted answers actually recovers lost reputation points.
  • Knowing that users tend to disregard comments, I've tried to counteract the assumed-by-me-to-be-wrong signals with comments such as the following as part of the answer:

    • Note: Despite the down-vote, I think this answer offers effective solutions that work as advertised, while (hopefully) also being informative. Do tell us if it is not, so it can be fixed / improved.

    • If and when the vote tally has gone to 0, I remove these comments.

    • Note that the primary thrust of these comments is: I believe this answer works and may help future readers, while also remaining open to feedback to the contrary.

  • I understand that posting such comments as part of an answer is controversial, but here's my reasoning (which - to be clear - is not what this issue is about):

    • Only answerers who firmly believe in the value of their answer would post such - very specific - meta commentary as part of their answer. Answerers who don't [care],  wouldn't, as that would invite further down-votes.

After posting the above rationale in a comment, I received a message from the moderator team (such messages have no individual author; for those who have the necessarily privileges, they can view it, as well as my response, at https://stackoverflow.com/users/message/115320), which:

  • (a) told me not to engage in speculation as to why a down-vote may have occurred (I am on board with that, and have stated so in my response).
  • (b) specifically stated:

    You may request feedback on posts in comments (e.g., "I would happily accept comments on any issues with this answer so that I may improve the answer to address the issues")


The incident:

After a regular user edited in-answer meta commentary of the above flavor out of one of my answers:

  • (a) I instead posted that meta commentary as a comment instead, as explicitly instructed by the message from the moderators.

  • (b) Also, given that this was not the first such incident, I posted a "meta meta" comment to said user, pointing out that such comments should be acceptable, as implied by the moderator message. (This specific comment did deserve to be removed, hopefully only after having been read by the recipient).

Note: I know that I am - inadvertently - inviting the meta effect by posting a link to a specific answer, but I encourage anyone following the link to only cast votes there - if any - based on an honest evaluation of the answer, grounded in subject-matter expertise.

Subsequently:

  • Both my comments were removed (I do not know by whom).

  • A moderator locked the post.

In short:

  • Said instance of moderation directly violated the advice given by the moderator team.
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  • 10
    this is interesting. I would have expected mods to say not to make such comments requesting feedback on the post. I would generally consider such a comment to be noise.
    – starball
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 1:05
  • 1
    @starball, I can see why you would expect that (I disagree with the sentiment, for the record), but that is a separate discussion. This issue, specifically, is about moderators not honoring their own advice.
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 1:08
  • 17
    I'm the moderator who gave the advice, but not the moderator who removed the comments. We're not always perfectly in sync (there are 20+ of us; keeping perfectly in sync is quite a challenge). I've alerted them to this post, though they're not around at the moment. Personally, I would have preferred a comment that doesn't imply the downvote was wrong and is more focused on the request for input (as in my example in the mod message, which I've used in the past on other network sites with some success, getting useful feedback that resulted in me improving the answer).
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 3:24
  • 7
    I was trying to strike a balance between "noisy comments complaining about downvotes" and "answers that could be improved getting advice to improve them". People who will actually happily take advice (as I try to) and improve the answer should be able to express that in a way that will make it clear that they're not going to start a flame war under the answer, as a common (and valid) reason people give for not commenting on content they think has problems is that they have experienced pretty toxic responses in the past. If it gets people to leave such feedback, it can improve the content.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 3:30
  • 6
    It's still not clear what you are complaining about. In the tl;dr what exactly is the "specific advice" & exactly how was it "subsequently followed" by you & exactly what "specific moderator's action explicitly undid it" & how did that action undo it? (Are you complaining about the locking to preserve the curator removal of your in-post commentary? About the removal of your comment? Both?) PS Please less typography & more clarity of phrasing & organization.
    – philipxy
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 4:33
  • 5
    This is not the only answer of yours where you put request for feedback. Also that answer did received some feedback and only after you have ignored the feedback you have added the commentary into the answer. It is obvious that you are not really interested in feedback, so why ask for one. If you as an expert cannot determine why your answer is not good enough, what do you want from others? And like others have said, asking for feedback after receiving the downvote is useless as the person who downvoted is already gone. Those who want to leave comment will regardless of the voting.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 10:36
  • 1
    @Dalija Prasnikar, of course: I followed the same pattern on all of my (very few) answers that have a negative net score, for the reasons outlined. Which answer received feedback that you think I ignored, and why is that feedback no longer there? I'd be happy to address it. These comments are addressed to future readers - it is irrelevant who cast the down-vote. They ask future readers not to disregard the answer out of hand and to provide feedback if there is a problem, after all.
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 14:00
  • 1
    I understand that you have used the same approach to all the answers, before you were notified that this kind of comments don't belong in answers. My criticism is not directed to that, nor that you haven't removed such meta comments from all answers. My criticism is directed to that you had people commenting and that you haven't addressed their criticism. Of course, you don't have to do that, and you can disagree with the critics. Nothing wrong with that. The point is that asking for feedback is double-edged sword. If you ask for it and you don't act on it, you have made things worse.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 18:52
  • 2
    People that want to leave a comment because there is something wrong with the answer, will leave such comment regardless. They are not leaving comment just for the author, but for everyone else. So asking for feedback is not going to do you much good regardless where you put such request.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 18:54
  • 2
    Posts receiving attention after having been given attention via a meta post isn't exactly an unexpected or unwarranted pattern.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 19:05
  • 1
    Yes, we know what is Meta effect. But it is not a pattern that requires any kind of calling out because it is not that single person is targeting you unjustly but because you brought your contributions to the spotlight.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 19:10
  • 2
    Honestly, people that understand your answers will not care about votes and will vote according to how they value the answer. And whether someone who does not understand the answer and will not upvote because the answer is downvoted, well maybe that is better. There is nonsense answer on that Q which was upvoted 41 times too many. To be fair, your answer there is just as bad. No, I haven't downvoted it.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 19:19
  • 1
    If there are only handful of votes on answers, then having a helpful answer downvoted can make a difference. But, generally that is not the case. If the answer is good the votes will come regardless. But do you think that authors' comment on answer can make the difference? If I don't know if answer is good or bad because I lack the knowledge and answer is downvoted, would I trust the author saying that answer is good and that downvote is inexplicable? Or would I care if the author is asking for a feedback? No. I would dismiss such answer anyway, because I cannot asses its quality.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 19:42
  • 5
    A comment at the top of the answer isn't a comment: it is noise getting in the way of the answer summary.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 20:10
  • 4
    @mklement0 what i'm getting at is when an answer is returned in search results, the first part of the answer is used to summarize the answer. If your summary is "This is negatively scored but i promise it shouldn't be!" you're not giving the user any information that would be useful at determining whether or not the answer is relevant to their search. This might become even more relevant, depending on how the upcoming semantic search turns out.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 21:18

7 Answers 7

24

Some disclosures: I handled some of the flags on the post in question. I did not send the moderator message. Probably should have followed up with my own later. Apologies for not doing that earlier.

That having been said, my objection to this more or less tracks with others. I think your rationale fails here

Knowing that users tend to disregard comments, I've tried to counteract the assumed-by-me-to-be-wrong signals with comments

The gist of what the other moderator seems to think here (and I don't think you or they are wrong in this) is that there is a chance (albeit small) it might get a response as a comment. There are use cases for that, where you have, say, an old and venerable answer that is being hammered into oblivion for now being wrong. A comment on the downvote pattern there is understandable, and possibly even useful.

Where I had a problem with this is that it was done for a single downvote. It made your answer 0/-1 (for all the fears of Meta effect, it's still at that score). On top of that, your opening gambit was an edited-in message, which is never OK. You then wanted to argue that point (where I got involved was a moderator flag about it). I tend to think the other moderator who sent the message was headed in the direction of comments, since (as mentioned) there are use cases where a comment can be marginally acceptable. Do you know how many comments we remove for being about a single downvote? A lot. And if we let this one stand, we're going to get lots more folks who want their meta-voting-commentary comments to remain. Or, as put in the FAQ

If a vote is in error—which can always happen—the expectation is that the "swarm intelligence" of future viewers will eventually correct the problem. A single vote is nothing, really. What matters is the sum of all votes, which is why we only display the aggregate score.

TL;DR

  • Adding meta commentary about voting into the post itself is not allowed
  • Single votes aren't considered a problem. Yes, there are drive-by downvoters who care nothing about site quality, but that's baked into the system. It's frustrating, but it comes with the territory
  • Comments about downvoting are generally only useful when there's a recent pattern of downvotes without explanation. In some situations we may allow requests for clarity on voting in comments to remain

I hope that helps to clear things up.

10
  • As for the meta commentary in a post itself: Understood, and, as also confirmed by me in one of the removed comments, I'll stop doing it (though I personally disagree with this policy - to me, judicious use of such comments is preferable to using comments).
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 14:59
  • What you're saying about when comments about down-votes are called for contradicts what the moderator message (quoted and linked to in the OP) stated; to recap: "You may request feedback on posts in comments (e.g., 'I would happily accept comments on any issues with this answer so that I may improve the answer to address the issues')" I posted such a comment as a result (after it had been removed from the post itself), and it's frustrating to see that it was removed.
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 15:25
  • 2
    As for why even a single down-vote matters: It is the threshold that is likely to make future readers dismiss answers out of hand. My comments are simply meant to be an extra pointer to say: "I think this answer has value - I've double-checked to make sure that it works as advertised - and may help you, so I invite you to evaluate that for yourself. If there's a problem with the answer, after all, let us know, and I'll fix/delete it." To me that is more than just complaining about a down-vote - it's an invitation to engage productively.
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 15:28
  • 9
    The bulk of the issue there is (as I mentioned) we remove tons of comments aimed at downvoters. It wasn't until the mod room pings that I realized there was not unity there. I didn't even remove all the comments (there was a third mod there, and that was a simple NLN flag). If you leave comments like this and they get flagged they are highly likely to be removed, mod message or not. There's no easy way to avoid that. My comments were aimed more towards why I locked it
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 15:29
  • Understood, and I understand that the distinction I'm making is subtle: my comments are not aimed at down-voters, but at future readers, and are an invitation to productive engagement, and not a complaint. But we can leave it at that.
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 15:33
  • As an aside, re the meta effect: Yes, the answer in question is still at -1. However, someone apparently (I can't know for sure) took the time to track down 2 of the other 3 answers of mine with a negative score and down-voted them without comment.
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 15:33
  • 6
    "the distinction I'm making is subtle" - it's really not that subtle; we just don't consider it relevant. "Invitation to productive engagement" is always implicit in the core functionality of the site itself and the fact of the existence of its community. The fact remains that you felt compelled to highlight an ordinary feature of how the site works because of someone else's content rating. This will never be perceived by others as anything other than a complaint, in any place that allows for user-rated, user-generated content. Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 18:40
  • @KarlKnechtel: After I removed a regretfully snarky response, let me try a snark-free version: The distinction (a) is subtle, and (b) it matters on a site riddled with poor-quality answers that their authors allow to stand, despite - often easily verifiable - feedback pointing out their flaws. In other words: that answerers stand by their post (and invite feedback to productively engage with anyone who disagrees) is de facto not implied.
    – mklement0
    Commented Oct 3, 2023 at 3:37
  • @KarlKnechtel: You and possibly others may perceive my comments as complaints (they're not), wherever they're placed. Others may pay attention - and they're the target audience; the potential reward is a solution that works for them. If it doesn't, and they provide relevant feedback, leading to the answer getting amended or even deleted, as the situation may warrant, that's a win for the community at large too.
    – mklement0
    Commented Oct 3, 2023 at 3:37
  • @KarlKnechtel: The premise is: Such comments only make sense on post with a net negative score, and are to be removed if and when the net score reaches 0. While the net score is negative, that is the main signal, which the comment is meant to counteract. To those who only care about the main signal (vote tally), any comment will be irrelevant (and it is therefore moot to debate whether it amounts to "noise"). To those who choose to look more closely, the comment may provide value.
    – mklement0
    Commented Oct 3, 2023 at 3:37
21

Honestly? People aren't obligated to explain their downvotes, and I get that it would leave you in a lurch if you didn't receive feedback on how to improve your question.

But the exact wrong way to get that feedback is to put meta commentary in a comment. On the surface, it could come across as you complaining about downvotes when I think your intent is to figure out if there's anything wrong with your answer.

So here's what you do.

You start a new question about that specific answer and ask if there's something that needs to be improved about it. You don't mention anything about moderators or flags or even your manifesto since none of that has anything to do with why people think your answer isn't sufficient.

Anything besides that isn't gonna go well here since your apparent goal isn't going to be met by fussing about mods.

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  • Leaving the gratuitously combative framing aside ("Honestly?"): This issue isn't about expecting down-voters to explain their votes. It also isn't about my asking to put meta commentary in my answers (even though I do think that is a valid, but that is an entirely separate question - as explicitly stated in the question). Asking a new question just to debate the quality of a specific answer strikes me as a terrible idea that truly creates unwanted noise. You're welcome to address the core of my actual question, as now expressed more succinctly in the tl;dr section of my post.
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 1:17
  • 4
    @mklement0: So is the point of you being upset about having your question downvoted that you made a comment about it (which is expressly discouraged for this reason) and that a moderator found it and took action? Do you... not ...want to know how to improve your answer or see if it could be improved? What difference does the moderation action here matter if the goal is to figure out how to remedy your downvoted question?
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 2:10
  • You're again missing the point: The question is about my having been expressly encouraged to use comments to express my disagreement, yet in the case at hand such a comment wasn't merely removed, but explicit moderator action prevented me from re-posting it. Whether you personally disagree with whether such comments should be allowed is an entirely separate discussion. Self-evidently, I do want to improve my answers - if there is a problem with them - otherwise I wouldn't explicitly solicit feedback.
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 2:27
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You are misinterpreting the mod team's message.

You may request feedback on posts in comments (e.g., "I would happily accept comments on any issues with this answer so that I may improve the answer to address the issues")

Emphasis mine. The request for feedback can be done via comments, the same place you would expect such feedback to end up. However... I don't see much value in requesting feedback on downvotes that happened 4, 7, and 9 years ago. The users who casted them likely don't even know the answer still exists.

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  • 1
    Actually, it seems that OP understood that, and the primary complaint is that the comments were also removed. The post is meandering and gives an entire history of the situation, and the apparent issue only shows up right at the end. Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 0:33
  • Indeed, @KarlKnechtel, I did understand that. As for meandering: one person's meandering is another person's providing important context. Kevin B: How long ago down-votes happened and who cast them are entirely irrelevant to this post.
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 1:03
  • @KarlKnechtel, I've added a tl;dr section to the question, which should help clarify what this post is about.
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 1:11
  • 5
    @mklement0 if you are asking for reasons for downvotes, the time when they were cast and access to the people who casted them is in fact relevant. If you want more general feedback, that's what should be asked for instead.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 6:09
  • @KevinB: These comments are addressed to future readers - it is irrelevant who cast the down-vote. They ask future readers not to dismiss the answer out of hand (due to its score) - lest they miss out on a viable solution (which I stand behind) - and encourage them to provide feedback if there is a problem, after all. If no future readers sees value in the given answer and no one leaves feedback - so be it. No need to pursue this beyond the simple guidance that the comments provide.
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 14:07
  • 2
    @mklement0 that is implied by the existence of your answer.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 14:35
  • @KevinB: On a site riddled with poor-quality answers that their authors allow to stand, despite - often easily verifiable - feedback pointing out their flaws, that is de facto not implied. And, to be clear: I'm NOT asking for reasons for down-votes, I'm saying I have checked this answer and I believe it works and may therefore help you, but if you see a flaw nonetheless, I'm all ears, and, if we reach a shared understanding, I'll fix the answer or delete it, as the situation may warrant.
    – mklement0
    Commented Oct 3, 2023 at 3:17
14

First, a reality check: a quick look at your profile shows that you have more than 7500 answers written, of which four are at below zero score (all -1). That's an incredible record that places you among the elite of Stack Overflow's question-answering elite. So, to be frank, it seems kinda unproductive to have a complaint in the first place. If you didn't see anything wrong with the answer, and you're this much of an expert (apparently on PowerShell and a variety of related topics), how much can it really bother you that someone else seemingly does? Especially for something you apparently (assuming I can trust my research) wrote years ago?

If I were petty, I would be tempted to downvote the answer again just to make a point. Of course, that would be a clearly abusive use of the site software, and I also like to think I'm better than that, so I won't.

I try to only post answers that (a) I believe to be helpful and (b) whose efficacy I've verified myself (if I can't do the latter, I'll say so).... In the absence of such, I assume the - assumed by me to be unwarranted - down-votes to be a disservice to the community: they send the wrong signal, potentially causing future readers miss out on helpful answer that they might disregard out of hand due to their negative score.

Well, of course you think your answer is useful and effective, or at least you did at the time of writing it. You wouldn't have written it otherwise.

However, you aren't the only one who gets to have and express an opinion on this matter, and others are not required to justify their opinion, by design. It's not you assuming the downvote to be unwarranted; it's you disagreeing with someone else's assessment that the answer should be downvoted.

We don't get to upvote our own answers here (it would be self-congratulatory noise anyway), so you don't really have recourse in this debate. Sorry.

More to the point, "helpful and effective" are not the standard for voting on answers. As long as it isn't explicitly abusive of the system, people are, again, allowed to cast their votes as they please. Moreover, the standard described by the tooltip is whether the answer is useful. An answer that is helpful and effective for the person who asked the question, can still fail to be useful for Stack Overflow:

  • It can fail to explain a problem in a generic way that is meaningful to others who find the question with a search engine (as opposed to people who happen to have the OP's exact mindset)

  • It can answer a question that should be closed and deleted, and thus be harmful to the site by its mere existence (as this interferes with automatic cleanup of such questions).

I understand that posting such comments as part of an answer is controversial

It's not "controversial"; it's explicitly against policy. Questions and answers are not to contain any meta content, because this is not a discussion forum.

Only answerers who firmly believe in the value of their answer would post such - very specific - meta commentary as part of their answer. Answerers who don't [care], wouldn't, as that would invite further down-votes.

On the contrary. By including such commentary, you actively degrade the value of the answer itself as an answer - it's that much extra text that someone who just needs the question answered, has to ignore. There's also nothing at all "specific" about the meta commentary you describe - it would be equally true of every answer written in good faith, ever.

I instead posted that meta commentary as a comment instead, as explicitly instructed by the message from the moderators.

Sure, that's fine and within intended use of the site. However, it is also fine and within intended use of the site that such comments routinely get deleted.

Also, given that this was not the first such incident, I posted a "meta meta" comment to said user, pointing out that such comments should be acceptable

It's not useful to say this, because this was the first time that you used comments instead of editing the answer. In the previous incidents that you refer to, the other user was completely in the right, because your commentary was not in the form of a comment, but instead noise added to an answer, which should rightfully be edited out (or rolled back).

Making such a comment is at best misguided and at worst comes across as expressing a personal vendetta in the comments section. Again, this is not a discussion forum, so we don't want those things to happen.

Said instance of moderation directly violated the advice given by the moderator team.

No, not at all. Just because you are supposed to post something as a comment rather than as part of an answer, doesn't mean that moderators aren't supposed to remove it from the comments.

Comments are intended to be ephemeral, regardless. They can be removed by a moderator as "no longer needed" at any time, as long as the moderator agrees that the comment is indeed "no longer needed". This could happen, for example, because you're using the comment to complain about a downvote on an old answer, when there is no way for you to know who cast the downvote or how long ago, and thus no reasonable way to direct the request for clearer feedback. It could also happen because requests for such feedback are considered implied for all answers, all the time, by the nature of the system.

In short: you are not entitled to a lasting mechanism for posting this request for feedback, no matter how altruistic, non-reputation-seeking, and non-bothered-by-someone-else-thinking-you're-wrong-on-the-Internet you are.

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  • 1
    I misunderstood initially, or rather I changed my mind as it became clear that your complaint is deeper than the original lack of feedback, and that explaining the situation requires more effort. However, I think that in some sense the root cause here is the same: a presumption of entitlement to feedback, even on old content. That just isn't scalable to a site where new post IDs are in the high 8 digits. Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 0:32
  • I appreciate, the withdrawal of the close-as-duplicate vote. As for your answer: As previously, it calls for a point-by-point rebuttal, which I'll post in an answer of my own.
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 0:59
12

Let’s discuss the difference between the example comment the moderator message gave you vs what I assume to be your comment (since I can't view deleted comments). Note that I am keeping aside points mentioned in other answers here that I also agree with.

The example given by the moderators was:

I would happily accept comments on any issues with this answer so that I may improve the answer to address the issues

To potential readers, this comment conveys that the author of the answer is potentially open to feedback and will try to improve the answer given such. In my opinion though such a message should be implicit to all posts on Stack Overflow and posting this comment would be adding unnecessary noise. Such comments getting deleted without notice shouldn't startle a user.

Your commentary on the answer (and presumably the deleted comment):

Despite the down-vote, I think this answer offers effective solutions that work as advertised, while (hopefully) also being informative. Do tell us if it is not, so it can be fixed / improved.

The first sentence starts with "Despite the down-vote ..." tells a reader that you disagree with the downvote and the reason you are writing the comment is to address the downvote. Your trailing sentence tries to solicit feedback, but the sentences preceding it have already given a message to readers that their feedback might be met with disagreement.

Note that this is not an imaginary concern and users have devolved into abusing, etc. from what started as asking for downvote reasons.

What the moderators expected from you when suggesting the alternative of commenting (along with an example) was that you'd express that comment in a constructive manner focusing less on the downvotes and more on the content and improving it.

10
  • No, as you can tell from Macavity's comment on his own answer it was not about the specific wording. As also argued there, my comments are an invitation to productive engagement to future readers, not a complaint to the original down-voter (which would be pointless). The negative score of the answer is the crux of the issue, that's why comment opens the way it does - by its very existence the comment expresses a disagreement. However, the comment doesn't dwell on that:
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 15:50
  • Instead, it tells future readers that I've double-checked the answer and verified its effectiveness - which is not a given on this site, by any means. Thus - based on this invariably subjective assurance - future readers may decide to evaluate the answer themselves and may find it solves their problem. If not, they will hopefully provide feedback so the answer can be improved (or even deleted, if warranted). If they do choose to engage, it is likely to be to everyone's benefit. If not, that's fine too.
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 15:50
  • 2
    @mklement0 "my comments are an invitation to productive engagement to future readers" they are not for the very reason I stated in my answer, many users will hesitate to engage simply because of the topic being downvotes. You also should note that if a user isn't reading an answer they typically won't read comments on it as well. Meaning if someone is reading the comments on your answer they have likely read your answer as well. So the way you should be dealing with downvotes is to make the answer impressive enough that people try it out regardless of the downvotes. Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 16:36
  • Comments tending to get disregarded is the very reason I originally tried to place my comments at the top of the post itself, in small print, which still strikes me as the best solution if used judiciously - but it has been made clear in-post meta comments are a no-no. Thus, posting a comment is the only - suboptimal - option, not least because now we've learned that such comments are subject to deletion anytime.
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 16:49
  • As for whether my wording is an invitation to productive engagement: that is ultimately in the eye of the beholder, and we can leave it at that. As for the answers being impressive enough: I'd like to think the ones in question are, and I've certainly done my best, but the concern is that the score alone will cause users not to look (a short comment is much more likely to be grasped quickly that an answer as a whole, which is much more of a time investment).
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 16:52
  • 4
    This answer, in its current state, accurately describes my thinking when I wrote the message and the example comment therein.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Sep 19, 2023 at 0:31
  • 5
    @mklement0 Your stated reason, in this question, for posting the comments, is "to counteract the assumed-by-me-to-be-wrong signals". That is very different from a primary purpose of soliciting feedback for improving the answer. This emphasis on your assumption that the downvote is incorrect is reflected in the phrasing of your comments.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Sep 19, 2023 at 0:31
  • @RyanM, that sounds like a false dichotomy.
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 19, 2023 at 1:11
  • 3
    @mklement0 Could you elaborate as to why you feel that that is a false dichotomy? I certainly didn't intend to imply that those are the only possible choices; I am merely stating the reason for posting a comment that I had intended when writing the message, and contrasting it with your own stated reason for posting your comments. As a primary purpose for posting a comment, counteracting assumed-to-be-invalid signals and soliciting feedback in order to understand the reason for an assumed-to-be-valid signal (that is, that the downvote indicates an issue) are quite different purposes.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Sep 19, 2023 at 1:20
  • @RyanM, one motivates the other: they're not at odds: If I didn't believe the signal to be wrong, I would never let the answer stand as-is (I would either amend or delete it). It is because I believe the signal to be wrong - after careful vetting - that I (a) state my belief in that (and, obviously, it's just _my _ belief) and (b) signal my willingness to fix any problems based on feedback, should that belief turn out to be (partially or fully) incorrect. I see no contradiction there or even tension there.
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 19, 2023 at 13:17
8

Addressing voting in posts or comments is not controversial, it is definitely improper.

Post meta & social commentary that is not disallowed--like "request feedback"--is mostly noise and best not there and properly edited out. "Anything that is not relevant to the post is noise and should be removed."

Anyway, the mod(s) didn't say "request feedback" commentary was allowed in posts, they said it was allowed in comments.

As a comment it is similarly noise and removable any time.

2
  • Your first point addresses what this issue was not about, as explicitly stated in the question. Your second point - the mod(s) didn't say "request feedback" commentary was allowed in posts - is a straw man, because no one made that claim. What the issue is about - which most of the answers here, including yours, fail to address - is that I followed moderator advice, only for a different moderator to not only undo my doing so, but actively thwart future attempts to do so by locking the post.
    – mklement0
    Commented Oct 20, 2023 at 22:41
  • If the upshot is: One moderator recommended one thing, but the majority of moderators disagree, then that is the answer, and it should be framed as such.
    – mklement0
    Commented Oct 20, 2023 at 22:41
-17

As of this writing, in my estimation all answers given so far miss the very point of my question, as (now) expressed in the tl;dr section at the top.

  • Comments explaining why the answers miss the point have been left on the individual questions.

  • Karl Knechtel's answer too misses that point, but calls for a point-by-point rebuttal - see below.


Note: The following is relevant for discussions that may ensue from the issues involved here, but the original issue stands.

you have more than 7500 answers written, of which four are at below zero score (all -1). That's an incredible record that places you among the elite of Stack Overflow's question-answering elite.

  • First things first: I appreciate that you did the research, and I appreciate the recognition of my contributions overall.

So, to be frank, it seems kinda petty to have a complaint in the first place.

You're assuming that my complaint is personal - which it both is, in a sense, but - more importantly - also is not:

  • The sole motivation for my complaint is that I believe the down-voted answers in question to have value to others, which the down-votes discourage others from realizing.

you aren't the only one who gets to have and express an opinion on this matter

Of course not: Others can - and have, in the cases at hand - expressed their opinion, abstractly, through down-votes. While just down-voting - without posting as a comment as to why - is anyone's prerogative, I don't think that anyone will disagree that doing also the latter is preferable (not every down-voter needs to do that - once relevant comments have been posted, it's perfectly reasonably to only down-vote).

It's not "controversial"; it's explicitly against policy.

The post you link to in the original comment is about an entirely unrelated class of meta comments (thank-yous).

you actively degrade the value of the answer itself as an answer

  • What degrades the value of the answer is the net negative score.

  • A comment - whether in-answer or not - affirming the answer's validity may induce readers to give the answer a chance, after all. If the comment is found to be frivolous or incorrect, additional down-votes are warranted, as usual (hopefully - but not mandatorily - accompanied by a comment as to why).

  • I remove such meta comments once the answer's net score has reached zero - as at that point they truly would amount to noise.

you're using the comment to complain about a downvote on an old answer, when there is no way for you to know who cast the downvote or how long ago, and thus no reasonable way to direct the request for clearer feedback.

  • How old the answer is is irrelevant.
  • Who cast the down-vote is irrelevant.
  • The request for clearer feedback was not directed to anyone in particular, but may inspire users other than the original down-voter to provide such feedback.

However, it is also fine and within intended use of the site that such comments routinely get deleted.

The point was that a moderator was either involved in deleting my comment or - at least - in preventing me from (re)posting such a comment, despite my having been encouraged to do so by the moderator team.

22
  • 6
    "The post you link to in the original comment is about an entirely unrelated class of meta comments (thank-yous)." Every kind of meta commentary is unwanted for the same reason, and the argument presented in the FAQ should be fairly clearly generalizable. "What degrades the value of the answer is the net negative score." To degrade means to make something actually lower in quality, not to decrease its quality rating. People disapproving of your answer doesn't make it worse than it already was. Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 4:50
  • 1
    "Who cast the down-vote is irrelevant." If you're trying to convince people that an answer shouldn't be at a negative score, and you aren't actually interested in addressing the reasoning of the person responsible, then that is equivalent to just directly soliciting upvotes. "The point was that a moderator was either involved in deleting my comment" - every comment deletion is performed by a moderator, so this is completely moot. "despite my having been encouraged to do so by the moderator team." - this is completely irrelevant; the point of comments is to be temporary. Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 4:51
  • 1
    (Similarly: when theme park officials prohibit you from bringing outside food and drink onto the fairgrounds, they are not waiving the right to clean up after you, or to expect you to clean up after yourself, after eating their food. The fact that they suggested that you buy something doesn't make them hypocrites for not wanting to put up with what it leaves behind.) Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 4:54
  • 8
    If the posts have value, surely they would have received more upvotes after all these years. Your own opinion of the value a given post have has no influence on how much value the community applies to it.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 6:11
  • @KarlKnechtel, I'll leave it to you to decide what to call (a) signaling that it's acceptable to post certain comments and (b) removing one shortly thereafter - not just casually, but in the context of locking comments. Not all comments are temporary (we've had this discussion before), but mine would indeed be: once the score reaches 0 or feedback is provided, it should be removed (which is what I've done in the past). In the absence of feedback I cannot know who down-voted, and you could equally argue that my addressed-to-the public comment amounts to inviting more down-votes.
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 14:46
  • @KevinB, an answer's value isn't necessarily reflected in the number of votes it has(n't) received, for a variety of reasons. One of the reasons is a negative score without feedback: It is likely to make future readers dismiss such answers out of hand, so that the answer's value may never be recognized. Of course it is my assessment that the answer has value nonetheless - the wording of the comments makes that very clear. It's an extra pointer that to me isn't implied, given that many answerers do not bother to check their answers and even let demonstrably broken ones stand.
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 14:58
  • 1
    @mklement0 Yes, however, you being the person who wrote the answer, have no real standing to state it's usefulness or value. That's implied by it's continued existence and is one of the reasons we can't vote on our own posts.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 15:00
  • @KevinB, I don't think that having double-checked and verified the solution is implied, as argued before (lots of demonstrably broken answers out there). My saying that I have done so is simply an extra pointer that future readers are free to disregard - if they don't, they may find value in the answer or they may help improve the answer (or even cause me to delete it, if warranted), and that would be to everyone's benefit.
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 15:11
  • 2
    It holds no more real value than someone saying "I googled and tried everything and nothing worked!"
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 15:13
  • @KevinB, unlike your example, my comments can lead to productive engagement - at the reader's discretion. Personally, if I came across such comments posted by others, I'd be more inclined to look at the answer despite a negative score - but I understand that not everyone would (and that is fine).
    – mklement0
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 15:17
  • 1
    "I'd be more inclined to look at the answer despite a negative score", Yes, however, it's a false sense of security. Again, it's just the owner of the content saying their content is the best thing since sliced bread. Real indications of value come over time from the community.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 15:21
  • 1
    that's a whole lot of assumptions. There's surely plenty of answers out there that have at some point been negatively scored but are now positive.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 21:39
  • 2
    Your whole premise here is you disagree with the score of your answer... Which was caused by less than a handful of votes over the course of 10 years. To consistently worry more about the score of the answer rather than the quality is counter-productive: If the answer is the best answer, and it's an answer people need, it will receive the upvotes it deserves. The votes don't stop google from returning this answer as the answer nor does it stop people from seeing the answer. The answers have the score they deserve given the people who have evaluated them. This is the site working as intended.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 21:45
  • 4
    so, you don't care about the (negative) score, but you care about the negative stigma the... (negative) score causes? wounds a whole lot like you care about the score to me. almost as if if it were positive you'd not be concerned.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 21:52
  • 2
    @KevinB: actually, the question was generated by a single down-vote. While the OP might not be worried about reputational effect, they still seem to care about trivial reputational matters, and this meta post looks to be the equivalent of trying to hunt canaries with a large gauge shotgun. Commented Sep 19, 2023 at 3:35

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