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  • The OP of the answer in question has repeatedly succeeded in getting comments deleted that contradict the claims made in the answer.

  • In my view, the comments were matter-of-fact and provided a carefully crafted, easily verifiable rebuttal.

  • After back and forth involving a moderator, after my comment had been deleted repeatedly and I had reposted it, initially genuinely believing this was a mistake, it was agreed that my original comment should stand, and that the only comments that should remain were the moderator's and two of mine (my original comment and an ancillary one that contained a command to verify my reasoning, but since to me the issue was so obvious, I decided to remove it later to reduce noise).

  • The OP was advised that the only way to have the remaining comments removed was to fix their answer.

  • Instead of fixing the answer, the OP eventually updated their answer to argue that their solution is correct, after all.
    That argument was based on an (unsourced) quote from my own answer.

  • Given that the answer now contained another - in my estimation - falsehood, and the quote from my answer was taken somewhat out of context, I felt it appropriate to address that issue too.

  • A new comment was posted, which, as before, I believe to be matter-of-fact and to contain a concise rebuttal; it also provided a link to the source of the quote.

I believe that it is important to let critical comments stand, assuming that they are (still) relevant and not ad-hominem.

The linked answer has many up-votes (presumably, because it seems to work, because the unwanted side effect it has easily goes unnoticed), so it is important to let future readers know how and why the answer is flawed.
(Obviously, my assessment could be wrong, but I have yet to see an argument against it - only attempts to silence.)

I find it troubling that my comments were repeatedly deleted for the sole reason that the OP tried to squash dissent and made enough noise to get their wish repeatedly.

I don't know for sure whether it was the same moderator who was involved in the original cleanup ended up deleting my follow-up comments, and this lack of transparency and feedback is part of the problem:

  • Other than taking my case here, which is obviously only suitable as a one-time approach, how should such cases be handled?

  • Is the need to allow moderators to delete comments without fuss simply the price to pay for such - hopefully only occasional - missteps?

Here's the deleted comment in context, with it and the OP's edit that prompted it highlighted:

Deleted comment shown in context

12
  • 4
    We know who the users are you carefully tried to hide the identities for. You linked to the answer in your first sentence ...
    – rene
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 16:23
  • Rather than posting a whole answer, since Aaron Hall is going to post something, I'm just going to suggest that you shouldn't post multiple comments just to argue that someone's answer is wrong. Criticism is one thing but comments (at least on Main) aren't for extended discussion.
    – BSMP
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 16:30
  • 11
    I wonder why this question is even on-topic for SO. Looks like it should be on Unix & Linux or Ask Different...
    – Heretic Monkey
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 16:49
  • 23
    @rene: Linking to the answer while blurring out the names in the image pasted here was a deliberate decision: For those interested in the more generic discussion here, I wanted to de-emphasize the personal aspect, which is why I blurred the names. For those who want to dig deeper, I provided the link to the answer in context.
    – mklement0
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 17:43
  • 2
    @BSMP: There are two comments that address two distinct points: The first one is a rebuttal of the original answer. The second one is a rebuttal of the content added later, which references my earlier comment and also a snippet from my answer without mentioning the source. Both comments, in my estimation, are helpful to future readers. If you have an issue with their factual content, do let us know.
    – mklement0
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 17:46
  • I'm not arguing that the comments were redundant, I'm suggesting that you don't get into an extended argument with someone about whether their answer is right.
    – BSMP
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 17:57
  • 16
    @BMSP: The only reason for this having turned into an extended affair is the repeated unwarranted deletion of my comments at the OP's urging. I do not consider providing a focused 2nd comment that address new content in the answer an extended argument.
    – mklement0
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 18:00
  • 8
    @BMSP: Another way of looking at it: The only criteria for letting a comment stand should be whether it is (a) still relevant, (b) not rude/abusive/chatty, (c) doesn't duplicate a previous comment. By contrast, who posted a comment and when is irrelevant.
    – mklement0
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 18:25
  • 1
    Why does the OP of the answer have 1 reputation despite having few +ve votes and few +ve voted questions?
    – T J
    Commented Jul 7, 2017 at 14:20
  • 3
    @TJ: Look at the OP's profile - it will tell you the reason.
    – mklement0
    Commented Jul 7, 2017 at 14:23
  • 1
    Of course, you could always just post about the controversy on Meta and let the meta effect nuke the stubborn answerer's answer into oblivion. Oh.
    – John Bollinger
    Commented Jul 7, 2017 at 17:39
  • @JohnBollinger :) The primary purpose was to understand why my comments kept getting deleted, but I do think the community is better off with the demonstrably false answer "nuked", given that the OP refused to fix it. Ironically, when I later directly invited the community to scrutinize another highly up-voted answer (to a different question) that had the exact same flaw, all hell broke loose. I do now see that this was too fraught a way to approach it, but I think it's a problem worth solving.
    – mklement0
    Commented Jul 7, 2017 at 18:36

1 Answer 1

Reset to default
9

Comments get deleted.

Comments are just a part of the system we have to deal with Questions and Answers. Comments are ephemeral. All comments are subject to deletion at any time for any reason.

Ideally, correct and currently apropos criticisms should not be deleted, but it happens.

How to improve the chances for your comments to avoid deletion by a moderator:

  1. Make your comment a clear and concise criticism. Think twitter, but shorter.

The problem with this answer is it says <X> but the [documentation](http://docslink) says <Y>.

  1. If you, genuinely, and in good faith, think a moderator was fooled by an incorrect flag into deleting your comment, address that in a follow-on comment.

This criticism has still not been addressed. The problem with this answer is ...

(You seemed to be taking 2 full comments to make all the points you wanted to make, and then you engaged in arguing with the answerer - and what was could have been good criticism was drowned out by noise. Then reposting identical comments without addressing the prior deletions didn't help.)

Still getting deleted, but you're sure you're right?

Don't keep reposting the same comment - that doesn't make you look good.

Bring it to meta's attention. I was hoping you would, and you did, thank you.

Ideals

We live in the real world, so our ideals are met with contingencies.

Ideally

  • Answerers write a correct answer in the first place.
  • If answerers write an incorrect answer, they fix their answer on your first comment, and then correctly flag it as obsolete.
  • If they don't fix it, your critical comment stands to warn readers until they do.
  • If your comment gets inadvertently deleted, someone else's comment works just as well (or better).
  • If bad stuff stands uncriticized, you take it to meta, and I hope we resolve it here once and for all.

It takes time for the community to deal with bad stuff.

Specifically addressing your questions

Other than taking my case here, which is obviously only suitable as a one-time approach, how should such cases be handled?

This is not a one-time thing. This will happen again.

You brought it to meta, which is fine, and if it happens on another Q&A, I hope you say something again. You can also bring it up in chat.

I do worry that we didn't have others also address the answer as well over time. But I also think that bringing it to meta was the right thing.

Is the need to allow moderators to delete comments without fuss simply the price to pay for such - hopefully only occasional - missteps?

We want to elevate the Questions and Answers. Comments are quite useful, but when their usefulness is outlived, they get in the way, and need to be deleted.

Anyone with power to delete them will make mistakes sometimes (and I'm not saying any particular deletion in this case was wrong per-se). That's why we have elected community moderators to handle these issues and respond on meta when there are questions about it.

17
  • Thank you for a calm, helpful response. I'll address a few points below, but I want to make it clear that I appreciate your answer.
    – mklement0
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 18:09
  • 2
    since moderators can undelete comments, what about an option to flag (the commented post) for undeletion? Assuming of course that flagger can fit compelling reasoning to justify such an unusual request into 500 chars flag message limit
    – gnat
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 18:11
  • 19
    @mklement0 - In addition to what Aaron wrote above, it's clear that you weren't the aggressor here, but when a post has generated 28 flags and 37 deleted comments we sometimes just want an argument to stop. Your original comment was good, constructive, and has been restored. It was originally deleted as part of wiping that whole argument, which had gone off the rails into personal attacks. We often see people reposting comments to try to "win" arguments by annoying a poster into deleting something, which is I think how other moderators saw this as they stepped in each time this was reposted.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 18:20
  • 1
    I appreciate the feedback, @BradLarson.
    – mklement0
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 18:21
  • 27
    Yes, comments are ephemeral in the sense that they can be deleted when the question has been improved such that they are no longer appropriate. That doesn't make it okay for a mod to remove a comment before the post it is commenting on has been improved to address that concern.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 18:25
  • 1
    Except for the transient comments addressing the OP's responses - which I had every intention of cleaning up - the two comments I wanted to let stand fulfill your criteria. As stated, I initially thought that their removal was accidental, causing me to repost. When it came to round 2, addressing the later revision of the answer that made an unrelated argument, I posted another comment in the same spirit and - naively, I now realize - thought it was removed by accident again, because to me the comment's merit was self-evident. When I realized it was no accident, I came here.
    – mklement0
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 18:36
  • 1
    As for my taking 2 full comments: The 1st comment provided an explanation, the 2nd comment - in an effort to help the OP understand - contained a command for verification of that explanation. After the 1st round of arguments, even you let that comment stand and it was I who later removed it, in an effort to reduce noise (because I ultimately thought the explanation was enough). Anyway: Thanks to your answer, I am now better equipped to deal with such cases.
    – mklement0
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 18:38
  • 1
    The comment posted by Brad Larson seems to me to be the correct answer to this question. It provides a specific explanation as to what happened and why the comments were deleted, whereas this answer doesn't really address it at all, except to say bring it to meta (which has already been done)
    – rdans
    Commented Jul 6, 2017 at 8:14
  • 3
    Can we make up our minds already how to deal with incorrect answers? This has been a problem for years. We're not going to open a Meta question for every incorrect answer, we're not going to keep following all our comments on incorrect answers to see whether either the answer or the comment gets deleted.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jul 7, 2017 at 13:56
  • @CodeCaster Are you raising this issue on the right thread? There are other current metaposts that are dealing with the issue. Perhaps you meant to comment here?
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2017 at 14:04
  • 2
    I think I clearly communicated that "correct and currently apropos criticisms should not be deleted" - perhaps you missed that part?
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2017 at 14:13
  • 1
    @AaronHall, I think your preceding that sentence with "Ideally" and succeeding it with "it happens" made it come across as a bit fatalistic and unsympathetic.
    – Kirk Woll
    Commented Jul 7, 2017 at 14:21
  • 7
    Well, to me it reads like "Comments are prone to deletion if it's flagged and the mod handling that flag doesn't like its wording". I find that very counter-productive to the goal of Stack Overflow. Who are you deleting comments for? What's more important: having an incorrect answer kept around because its poster couldn't handle criticism, or keeping a comment around which warns both the poster and its later readers about the issues therein, even though it may be a bit lengthy?
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jul 7, 2017 at 14:33
  • 2
    @KirkWoll I sympathize. Really, I do. But I also delete lots of comments. I took my time with these comments. I tried to curate just the criticisms. But other mods apparently got fooled by the flags, because they also delete lots of comments (more than I do.) And I don't want other moderators to be too precious about deleting comments. We're on a site about Q&A. Comments only exist to improve the Q&A. We all try to get it right, but the flag queue is huge, and mistakes will happen. CodeCaster - the length probably made it hard to see it was an actual criticism - and encouraged the mistake.
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2017 at 14:42
  • 1
    @AaronHall I think the problem is more the delivery of your answer than its substance. (and I don't think that problem was intentional on your part!) But fwiw, I think maybe you could have just said, "correct and apropos comments shouldn't be deleted, but it's tough to always get this right. I think in this case it was an error, but we always strive for perfection, and maybe I was a bit off the mark in this instance." would have gone a long way to alleviating everyone's concern. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
    – Kirk Woll
    Commented Jul 8, 2017 at 3:51

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