Bot-IGN

<marquee> Crush... Kill... Post Articles... </marq
Mar 28, 2001
91,780
7
Article Comments for [link=http://ps3.ign.com/articles/115/1154560p1.html]Editorial: Last Guardian's Girl Trouble[/link]
by Ryan Clements

Summary:
The Team Ico games are legendary creations, but is there a sour note to the design process of The Last Guardian? [link=http://ps3.ign.com/articles/115/1154560p1.html]Read Full Article[/link]
 

Kachimak33

Noob
Dec 22, 2005
53
0
This is kind of an odd choice for an article. There are plenty of game dev's that don't feature girls as the main character.
 

moosek51

Noob
Mar 3, 2008
206
0
Making the character a girl doesn't make them any more/less interesting. I think the real reason the character is a young boy is that the game can be referred to as "A Boy and his giant eagle-puppy-thingy".

P.S. Ryan Clements overrated Bayonetta. I want those hours of my life back.
 

manelgui

Noob
Jan 9, 2007
94
0
Interesting article, I had never thought that a cultural aspect could change a game's main character

nice article Ryan!
 

CallSignStarbucks

Almost Not a Noob
Oct 7, 2008
1,839
1
Hm, interesting. It's... fascinating to see how different our way of thinking is compared to theirs. While I do not agree with Ueda's assumptions, I still find his work to be amazing without a doubt.

Excellent article, Ryan.
 
Dec 30, 2008
259
0
And a swing and miss for the first two! Thanks for perpetuating exactly what this article is talking about.

Ryan is, I'm assuming, discussing how the obvious sexism in Ueda's choice is disturbing. And honestly, it is. It's ridiculous to think that girls can't be leads, and his reasoning, as well as his inability to imagine a girl NOT wearing a skirt, are disturbing and ignorant, especially for such an obviously intelligent man.
 

Rathbass1

Noob
Mar 9, 2011
1
0
Agreed - in this age of people drooling over diversity, it's interesting to see an article criticizing a culture's views on gender. The creator was honest in his reasoning for using a male protagonist in his game, and while it's fair to disagree, it's hardly article worthy. In fact, to bring out my chauvinistic side, boys are physically stronger than girls - it's just the way it is.
Furthermore, the last couple articles relating to Last Guardian and SOtC have been negative - and they produce some of the most creative games to ever grace a console. Why denigrate these guys, and not Duke Nukem or the other hundreds of developers?
 

afsarge

Noob
May 21, 2002
21
0
The sex of the character wouldn't make the game more interesting and the writer damn well knows it.


[[ No. -- DB ]]
 
Feb 22, 2008
802
0
i think they didnt make it a girl because...uhm creative choice/vision of the maker. I tink mister SLime charles would have some good insight about this topic since he is neither boy or girl ! beyond!
 

L_FRESH

Noob
Feb 8, 2009
2
0
its not an odd choice i thinks its quite valid really, there summising that only males will be playing this game and that womenmay not, and that women cant do suff that men canwhich is not the case
 

miked00d

Noob
Aug 30, 2007
195
0
I agree with the need for more digging into the subject, to be honest. Throughout the ico series, it's clear that 'traditional', even sexist views on women are prevalent- the females in the series are essentially helpless weaklings.
It's just nice to see that people are asking questions.
 
Nov 22, 2010
4
0
So, we get games with little girls like Rorona and Neptunia and all they get is hate, then you want little girls.

Cant wait for the Qoga review.
 
Jan 6, 2005
11
0
What a surprise. A dude from san francisco has different cultural sensabilities than a man born and raised in the traditional japanese way of life.

don't try to impress your views upon other cultures. let the man do what he wants. he doesnt have to please anyone.
 

BrioCyrain

Noob
Jun 19, 2005
32
0
This article couldn't get any more contradictory.

You don't care if the main character isn't a girl, yet you do, yet you don't, yet you do?

Just give it a rest already.
 
Jun 15, 2010
53
0
Yeah, I would say that Ueda's comments would be seen in the Western world as sexist, but I agree with Ryan that that doesn't make him any less of a godlike game designer.
 

JMart100

Noob
May 27, 2008
64
0
I hate this article... because of what it represents. We aren't talking about a huge company that has made a boatload of games and hates women. The question asked to Ueda is LOADED - there's no answer that will satisfy those who care about it. With the pretext that all of his games feature male leads, what can he say? What could he have said that would have gotten an "Ah, makes sense, that's smart." He didn't use women as protagonists in his few games... as have many developers, for whatever reason. His answers weren't good, but quite frankly, the premise to me is entirely flawed and he should never have had to address that question.

This is gotcha journalism, but it's worse, because it's fabricated, it's a non-issue because a couple of d-bags want to stir up controversy. Was it a wide problem that people wanted to see addressed? I've never heard ONE person even bring that point up. Stuff like this devalues IGN or anyone else that engages in it. Much of eastern Asia is still awfully traditional (to their detriment), but why is the main character of Yakuza or a million other titles not a girl? It's just not what fit that particular story. Are there biases? Probably, even inherently in the minds of some creators, just like some women are biased in favor of themselves. It's just human nature to some extent in certain people.

To turn this into some kind of an issue is beneath solid journalism and was a waste of a character count. Purely my opinion. I'd have felt just as excited about The Last Guardian had the protagonist been a woman or non-gendered alien. Let's revel in the game itself rather than wallow in nonsense.
 

kswindl

Noob
Oct 3, 2005
722
0
wait...didn't Ryan already write about this last time he saw Last Guardian? is this a rehash, or did they repost the same article?
and the reasons are simple: 1. they're mostly (if not all) men, so they'll obviously draw from their own experiences, and they've never been little girls.
2. sure you could have a female character and just dress her like a boy...but lets not pretend that wouldn't be confusing. they tend to like to have the camera pulled way back to see the giant monsters and areas, and lets face it, animated Japanese young characters have a history of being androgynous. "is that a boy who's supposed to look like girl...or a girl who's supposed to look like a boy?"
this fact isn't lost on the Japanese. think about Ed in Cowboy Bebop. several times they made the question of her sexuality a joke. they knew it was confusing.
 
Apr 3, 2009
78
0
I dont know Ryan. FF13 had a female protagonist, and she was even more manly than Vaan or Tidus. I suppose the response to this is that FF13 was hardly a Japanese game.
 

McSpazza

Noob
Jul 12, 2010
106
0
Honestly, they would barely need to change the character at all and they could pass off as a girl.
 

legacyAccount

Old Account
Nov 10, 2011
4,466,398
1,693
This is a very great article and, in my opinion, video game journalism at its very best. This is a important cultural issue, and I am glad that you were eager to not simply peruse the topic of game controls, difficulty, etc...But instead, focus on bigger issues that effect ideas outside the realm of games. Well done sir.
 

Funkytable

Noob
Jun 25, 2010
34
0
At the risk of being labeled a troll, I think it is both ridiculous and hypocritical for ign to run an article complaining about a game developer in another culture expecting that women are weaker and wear certain clothing. IGN supports the porn industry in their podcasts with plugs for their favorite porn sites, and then they want to whine that someone expects women wear skirts? Ridiculous and hypocritical.
 
Jan 24, 2009
1,313
0
Why is it a problem that the games have male protagonists? Are we going to jump on Nintendo for having male protagonists in the Mario and Zelda franchises? These protagonists are not only male, but they save women in most, if not all, of the games in their respective franchises.

As far as I can tell, the criticism here is that a company that has made two games, and is now making a third, has had a male protagonist in these three games. This is ridiculous.
 

FallenEvil

Noob
Oct 16, 2008
185
0
If I had 15 minutes with this guy, there are 1000 questions I would ask him, the least of which is dwelling on the sex of the main character. It's just so irrelevant in a game where the main character probably won't speak very much.
 

cmls1987

Noob
Jul 10, 2010
1
0
Dude... really get over it, and next time give us something interesting to read and not your own concerns on something that Mr. Ueda already answered, he told you that in his perception a girl is not strong enough. HIS PERCEPTION and he is known for printing his perception into the game.
 

Axe23

Noob
Aug 15, 2000
524
0
"His answers reflect an unfortunate stagnation in Japanese game development."

This is BS. His answers reflect his culture. They don't in any way distinguish Japanese game development from American game development. American game developers routinely design games with brutish unrealistically muscular men...shouldn't that reflect an unfortunate stagnation in American game development?

Heck, when it comes to gender I don't think there's a single developer out there who is without sin. Be it unrealistic men who swear every three seconds or girls in skimpy outfits....it seems game designers can't help but amplify cultural assumptions about gender. Even games that seemingly empower women, like Metroid, end up rewarding players with the character in her underwear.

My point is, Ueda isn't really that unusual at all. I don't agree with any of his reasons...but nor do I agree with a lot the American stereotypes found in games. And you definitely can't use this as ammo in the "Japanese games are stagnant" argument.
 
Apr 5, 2007
38
0
It sad to know the cultural gap here is so strong still over these years but i have a better question. Why is gender so relevant in this game? I find it weird someone even suggest why a girl wasn't the protaginist. Why isn't Megaman a girl or why Dead rising and DMC dont have female protaginst? Easy answer: just beacause they don't. After only two games under team ICO's belt, does gender really matter so much?
 

Syndicated0

Prime Member
Apr 23, 2008
13
0
dinnerrolla0 said:
What a surprise. A dude from san francisco has different cultural sensabilities than a man born and raised in the traditional japanese way of life.

don't try to impress your views upon other cultures. let the man do what he wants. he doesnt have to please anyone.

He has to please someone to sell the game...Also what does being in San Fransisco(yes I know what the city is like, yes I know its very liberal) have to do with anything, what you should be implying is that he's from the US.
 
L

lightdragons

Guest
Original poster
I agree with Zharaddan, um Ryan Clements you need to chill the *#!* out bro, so what that he decided to select a male character over a female, and so what that japan's customs and culture are different than what you agree with, and what you believe hence that is why you are not japanese, man! I was hoping to hear information about the games mechanics or certain abilities that the dog/cat what ever it is can do, but instead I get an article about you having a bf and a tittie attack about a game developer telling you the reasons of why HE chose the male character. Shouldn't these articles be about the games not the editor's personal cultural ideas of the game, if you feel so passionate about it become the next game developer to make the sequel.
 
Nov 26, 2009
118
0
I think this whole arguement is rather stupid here's a question would you enjoy final fantasy 7 any more if cloud was a girl lwho cares what gender in a way it's sexist saying the boy should not be the main character since girls are underused just stupid
 
Mar 6, 2011
1
0
I actually enjoyed the article. And I believe it just comes down to cultural differences. These ideologies may sound offensive to Western cultures but are completely sound and understood from the Japanese perspective. I don't think their ideas are wrong just different. So I think being put off by his comments seem a bit unnecessary.
 

Weshzu

Noob
Nov 26, 2009
6
0
don't gaming journalist have better questions to ask? Questioning the style of an artist is absurd. If you had a chance to talk to team ICO why not more inside scoop on the game freaken pathetic...
 

monorail77

Prime Member
Feb 1, 2008
228
0
Excellent article, Ryan. Thanks for writing it. It is indeed a shame that so many cultures still devalue women or, more generously in Japan's case, have very gender-specific, largely subservient expectations of women instead of seeing equality. This is a particularly timely article in light of international women's day. I hope your questions make Ueda and other Japanese developers think a little about their assumptions. Especially since their products so heavily influence many North American (and other countries') youth.
 

misticmud

Noob
Oct 10, 2010
5
0
I think we've pushed the feminist thing a bit to far his reasons are valid as much as a giant Dog bird is Valid he's Japanese not American, I happen to like his old fashion approach
 
Dec 30, 2008
259
0
@ JMart100

You realize that Ueda himself brought this up right? Someone asked him about the sex of the character in relation to the series itself, and he made a sexist comment. If he's going to make the comments about skirts in public, then he might be asked to clarify them. If a politician made a ridiculously sexist comment in public, he'd be asked to clarify. We ask celebrities to justify and clarify their behavior all the time. If you are in the public eye, you get asked questions. There is nothing "gotcha" about this.

Most developers don't use women protagonists, that's true. But they also don't claim that women have to wear skirts and aren't strong enough to do what men can. If they did, you can be sure that media outlets would eviscerate them for it.

 

kswindl

Noob
Oct 3, 2005
722
0
although i will say this: does Udea actually think boys could do the wall-climbing he has in his game? most of the stuff the characters do is physically impossible anyway, so i don't know what difference the character being a boy or girl matters, if you base it on that criterion.

@Funkytable
troll. and what's the connection anyway? i could say they're sexist towards men too, because porn objectifies men with huge wangs, and that offends me.
besides, Ryan never recommended porn sites, so shove it.
 
H

Howfish85

Guest
Original poster
At first I read this thinking IGN was actually writing a story that had some reason to it, that pointed out the fact that games often favor male protagonists and rarely female. I thought they'd actually had a point and were genuinely uncovering a deeper issue.

Then I remembered this is the site that has a "babes" section...

Sorry but that's a lot more sexist than having male protagonists in a game
 

legacyAccount

Old Account
Nov 10, 2011
4,466,398
1,693
Another garbage article. Ueda-san does not need to defend his reasons for using a boy. He should have just said "Because, creatively, this is my preferred choice". He then also handed Clement's ass back to him on a silver platter by asking directly: "Would you have preferred a girl?" To which he replied "no", thus rendering his whole argument worthless. If there is NO particular reason to use a girl...why should he ever have to? There is NO particular reason Samus Aran NEEDS to be a woman, so why is she? These are CREATIVE DECISIONS made by the CREATOR. There is nothing overtly sexist about any of team ICO's games or stories. And there is nothing sexist about choosing male protagonists if the creator wishes. I written a number of published short stories, never do I decide the sex of my character based on how many female protagonists I have used in the past. This article is journalism and whining at it's worst. You suck.
 

Kaizaghe

Noob
May 4, 2010
70
0
This aspect of gaming is a huge can of worms, Clements is obviously telling it as he experienced the conversation but being the topic it is will hit just about every stereotypical viewpoint going. Honestly it’s 2011 I’m surprised gender choice in a game environment is still even an issue, any more than say reading a book with a lead female character or watching a film with a female protagonist.
 

harblack

Noob
Nov 18, 2010
16
0
This is an utterly ridiculous atricle. He complains about sexism while at the same time making comments which could easily be described as racist. The issue is utterly ridiclous anyway, why is it an issue that within 3 games there has not been a female protagonist. So instead of interesting insights into an amaizng game, we get some utter rubbish
 

Muldoon925

Noob
Feb 1, 2010
537
0
Absolutely 100% agree Ryan. Very well put. Just because it is tradition, it doesn't mean things change. If that were to happen in the US, a law suit would be short to follow.