November 22, 2023November 27, 2023 by Tim Ferriss

Dr. Willoughby Britton — The Hidden Risks of Meditation, Overlaps with Psychedelic Risks, Harm Reduction Strategies, How to Choose a Retreat, Near-Death Experiences, and More (#705)

“If you can interface with any type of meditation spiritual system with maintaining your inner compass, that’s going to be a recipe for a much better outcome.”
— Willoughby Britton, PhD

Willoughby Britton, PhD, is a clinical psychologist, an associate professor of psychiatry and human behavior at Brown University Medical School, and the director of Brown’s Clinical and Affective Neuroscience Laboratory.

Her clinical neuroscience research investigates the effects of contemplative practices (meditation) on the brain and body in the treatment of mood disorders, trauma, and other conditions. She is especially interested in which practices are best- or worst-suited for which types of people or conditions and why. She is probably best known for her research on adverse effects—why they happen and how to mitigate them.

Dr. Britton is the founder of Cheetah House, a nonprofit organization that provides evidence-based information and support for meditators in distress as well as meditation safety trainings to providers and organizations.

Please enjoy!

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Castbox, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform. You can watch the interview on YouTube here.

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The transcript of this episode can be found here. Transcripts of all episodes can be found here.

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#705: Dr. Willoughby Britton — The Hidden Risks of Meditation, Overlaps with Psychedelic Risks, Harm Reduction Strategies, How to Choose a Retreat, Near-Death Experiences, and More

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Want to hear an episode that examines the upsides of meditation? Listen to my latest interview with Buddhist mindfulness legend Jack Kornfield, in which we discussed yogic swoons, the point of consciousness, how the Buddha would deal with anxiety, the dimensions of meditation, reliably eliciting the non-self, cultivating a more joyful mind, and much more.

#684: Jack Kornfield — How to Reduce Anxiety and Polish the Lens of Consciousness

What was your favorite quote or lesson from this episode? Please let me know in the comments.

SCROLL BELOW FOR LINKS AND SHOW NOTES…

SELECTED LINKS FROM THE EPISODE

Connect with Willoughby Britton:

Brown University | CLANlab

Connect with Cheetah House:

Website | Twitter | Facebook | Instagram

SHOW NOTES

[05:55] Where did Willoughby’s interest in meditation begin?
[09:47] Discovering a link between meditation and insomnia.
[11:51] Challenging assumptions about meditation as a purely beneficent practice.
[13:29] Awakening is not a metaphor.
[17:40] Can mindfulness be too much of a good thing?
[19:46] My personal experience with meditation defying positive expectations.
[28:04] Undesirable consequences of meditation are more common than you probably think.
[30:03] What makes some people more vulnerable to the potential dangers of meditation than others?
[45:53] Altered states as a deviation from baseline.
[46:38] The impact of diet on meditation.
[48:21] The neuroscience behind psychedelics and meditation.
[52:53] The dangers of combining psychedelics and meditation.
[54:36] Choosing and vetting the ideal meditation retreat.
[59:39] When being a high achiever is a risk factor.
[1:04:21] Does Willoughby currently practice any forms of meditation?
[1:07:04] When meditation compromises cognition.
[1:10:45] Duration of symptoms and duration of impairment.
[1:11:41] Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder (HPPD).
[1:12:50] Differences between meditation-related and psychedelic-related adverse events.
[1:15:31] The origin of Cheetah House.
[1:17:52] Ideological power and scaffolding.
[1:25:54] Willoughby’s self-care.
[1:29:47] Resources for people seeking relief from meditation-related adverse effects.
[1:34:43] Institutional betrayal and the empathy that comes from being humbled.
[1:37:12] Advice for aspiring psychedelic healers.
[1:39:33] Near-death experiences (NDEs).
[1:50:18] Parting thoughts, and the Dalai Lama’s response to Willoughby’s meditation research.

MORE WILLOUGHBY BRITTON QUOTES FROM THE INTERVIEW

“I was on a meditation retreat, and I mentioned the data that I had found, which is basically that it was causing cortical arousal and insomnia. And the meditation teacher sort of chastised me and said, ‘I don’t know why all you clinical psychologists are always trying to make meditation into a relaxation technique. Everyone knows that if you meditate enough, you stop sleeping.'”
— Willoughby Britton

“Let me tell you, males 18 to 30 who think that combining every possible powerful tool, all at once, to break on through to the other side is a story that I see again over, and over, and over again.”
— Willoughby Britton

“Within that study, we found that people who had tried meditation even once, half of them would have at least one negative effect. And it could be extremely brief, no big deal. More concerning is that 10 percent, so one in 10 people who had tried meditation even once, would have a meditation-related adverse effect that was associated with impairment in functioning.”
— Willoughby Britton

“Having a negative experience during meditation, which we call negative valence, I don’t consider that an adverse effect. I think that if you don’t have some kind of negative experience in your meditation at some point you’re probably sleeping, because it’s not a warm bath for the mind — it can be challenging.”
— Willoughby Britton

“If you can interface with any type of meditation spiritual system with maintaining your inner compass, that’s going to be a recipe for a much better outcome.”
— Willoughby Britton

“Meditation never really improved my cognition. I always found that I was sort of one of those sleepy meditators. I would just get really, really, really calm and my brain just kind of got dull. But if I go out there and just use power tools outside in the cold, then my blood’s moving, my brain’s working. That’s doing more of what I was hoping meditation would do. I am also just ecstatically happy, which meditation never did that for me.”
— Willoughby Britton

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Karen

8 months ago

Thank you for this show. I’ve been suffering for eight years and have been feeling so alone and didn’t understand what was going on. My life has completely unravelled. Lost my husband to divorce and custody of my children. I’ll check out the resources. Sincere thanks.

Tia

8 months ago

Reply to Karen

Dear Karen,

I empathize with your struggle and your losses and trust that you will find your way through, in kind, well-meaning company.

Eileen

8 months ago

I found this topic eye-opening. I am a clinical psychologist and have never heard of individuals having these types of serious adverse events to meditation. I learned a lot and will look into the resources provided! On a more personal note, I do try to keep a consistent meditation practice but have not had a great amount of success thus far. I haven’t had any type of adverse event, but the practice just hasn’t stuck. But I do feel the most in tune with the world and spiritually connected on my somewhat daily (music-less) runs. Thank you for helping me see that this can be my own type of meditation/spiritual practice that best suits me!

Cristal Weber

8 months ago

Loved this episode. As an older woman who has overdone meditation and psychedelics (it’s not only young men!), everything Dr. Brown said rang true to me. Fortunately I also had exposure to Somatic Experiencing and offshoot (Organic Intelligence) and am using techniques now similar to the “scaffolding” described. There is an interesting set of demos on Youtube of Peter Levine working with people who have sexual abuse issues. Would love for Tim to do some sort of interview that captures the power of and theories behind this sort of somatic work. Thanks so much, Cristal

Mindi

8 months ago

Thank you so much for this episode. Yes. The medicine, as well as the poison, is in the dose. In my twenties I was in a spiritual group and now, looking back, I experienced the seated meditation as a practice of re-traumatization. I would force myself through it, thinking it was what I was supposed to do. Thankfully, an older and wiser fellow member of the group who had a longstanding Zen practice, told me, “a seated meditation practice is not always appropriate.” I want the whole world to know that. Now, in my fifties, I meditate regularly. Timing is everything.

Tina

8 months ago

I think there is a great need for this public service announcement. Many teachers out there push the idea of “breaking through” the stress response indicators to “get to the other side”. Once such teacher is Joe Dispensa. Scary to think that people could end up in psychotic breaks doing this working without knowing the dangers, or when they need to stop, especially when people are doing it alone at home, guided only by books and have no oversight or teacher to help them “offramp”.

Ali

7 months ago

Hi Tim,

I hope all is well (and I gather that is the case considering the vulnerability and thoughtfulness emanating from your conversations with Dr. Britton and Sheila Heen).

I know you place tremendous value on your time so I’ll be brief. Your discussion with Dr. Britton sparked a question in me – What can be done to support the people in my life that are at an increased risk for suicide?

Much like yourself, my life has been peppered with the loss of bright young men and women to suicide. Recently, I have been blindsided by a similar pattern of loss but with older men in my life (age 60+). These men appeared to have a full life and most people would describe them as exceptionally successful.

I came across an article from AARP titled Why Older Men Are Killing Themselves at Alarming Rates. The rates reported on by the CDC breaks my heart but also motivates me to do something to help reverse this trend. Search the title and AARP and the article will pop up.

Your conversation with Dr. Britton leads me to believe you are uniquely qualified to speak to this topic. My ask is that you noodle on this and do what you feel is appropriate. Maybe this topic could be included in a future podcast episode or the AARP article could be shared on 5-Bullet Fridays? Personally, I will be sharing this article with my loved ones and reminding them that I am here for them.

I absolutely understand if this topic does not reach you or if you would prefer not to discuss given this topic’s delicate nature. The last thing I want to do is project any anxiety or obligation onto you. I feel confident in saying that the work you have done over the years and specifically with Episode #705 has and will save lives from suicide.

Thank you for all you do.

Best,
Ali Schmid

Nate

7 months ago

Thank you both Tim & Dr. Britton for discussing the other side of something that is usually only displayed in a positive light. I’ve always advised anyone who’s considered going to any of these retreats to try to ensure they’re in a mentally strong state prior to going and to expect a rollercoaster of thoughts, feelings and emotions. They’re definitely a trip.

On a more personal note: the following was mentally noted, edited and expanded upon over the course of my 10 day silent meditation retreat in June 2020 in Lava Hot Springs, ID.

-Vipassana-
The grass gets thin, infrequent, when you’re following the herd,
I’ve weathered through the storms sometimes not uttering a word.
10 days passed by so slowly, but time always moves the same,
I’ve wondered if the thoughts we have, have really got a name.
The senses are both dull and sharp, depending on how you live,
the time we have, right here, right now, is all we have to give.
I think I’ve solved it all today, but in the process gone insane.
The reasons that I’m here at all, I have only myself to blame.
When I am in your company, I’ll sometimes get relief,
left to my own devices, I could drown inside my grief.
But we can’t change the past, reliving what’s already been done,
and if you want to change the future, live life present, on the run.
Impermanence, so permanent, when one is brave enough to admire,
accepting it like moth to flame, I’ll set myself on fire.

Angelo Castello

7 months ago

Greetings Tim~
With great interest and empathy I listened to your podcast with Dr Britton.
Having lived in Hindu Ashrams, attended many Zen and Tibetan Buddhist retreats and in 1981 meditated 2 hours per day, did 2 hours of hatha yoga, studied Patanjali’s
8 limbs of yoga, and worked for the Ashram every day for a year, I learned the pitfalls of a meditation practice. Hallucinogens and fasting were prohibited. So was anything that was outside of our prescribed daily practice that would unnaturally force a peak experience. Occasionally there would be students who would violate the rules for practice and unfortunately suffer the consequences.
In the early 1980’s the Grofs, established the Spiritual Emergence Network (SEN) to help people who suffered from the adverse effects of forced peak experiences or just flashbacks of past trauma. There was a term for students that we used for those seeking peak experiences, “ blissininis ( bliss-in-in-eez).
In summary, Tim, as the Dalai Lama said in Dr
Britton’s video of her findings to him, meditation practice NEEDS to be grounded in study and in the wholistic view of a PATH.
Meditation practices have evolved from elaborate systems of beliefs, values and teachings, mainly for the purpose of self-realization, the discovery of truth and the introduction of wisdom to the ego saturated mind.
It is my sincere hope you balance your skewed podcast with Dr Britton and have a podcast on the virtues of a sound and grounded meditation practice, of which is far more prevalent than your podcast would indicate.
Thank you for all your good work and information you provide on a wide spectrum of life.
Warm wishes and gratefully yours,
Angelo Castello

Lieve Hendren

5 months ago

WHY aren’t more people talking about this?

Since enjoying this episode in November, it’s organically come-up in my conversations with…
– An amateur athlete who uses meditation to improve performance
– A friend with social anxiety who keeps trying meditation, but nothing sticks
– A friend who was raised Buddhist but never felt like she ‘got’ meditation

My favorite anecdote is the realizing that meditation approaches are tied to underlying world views – and Dr. Britton’s encouragement to be aware of those values.

After a tough break-up, I leaned on an hour of morning meditation and evening meditation for healing. Sometimes it helped, but I had an ominous sense that meditation slowed down my energy like a low mist obfuscating my path. It felt like I was always chasing a fleeting moment of peace, and then wandering back into self-isolation.

At the time, I felt like I was ‘doing it wrong,’ but after hearing this episode, maybe not? Maybe meditation wasn’t the right style or timing for me.

Thank you for permission to explore, the share when meditation isn’t working, and walk the fine balance between performance- and spiritual- meditation practices.

SELECTED LINKS FROM THE EPISODE

SHOW NOTES

MORE WILLOUGHBY BRITTON QUOTES FROM THE INTERVIEW

PEOPLE MENTIONED

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