Episode 23
In this episode, Michelle and Chandni talk with Destiny Fox Kanno, 2024 Make WordPress Training Team Rep, BlackPress Co-founder, Head of Community Education sponsored by Automattic, and WordCamp Asia ’23 & ’24 Organizer. The discussion centered around BlackPress and diversity in the WordPress community.
Mentioned in this Episode:
Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Michelle: Welcome to WP Constellations, a podcast exploration of the WordPress universe, brought to you by StellarWP.
Welcome to WP Constellations. We are from StellarWP and we love exploring the WordPress universe. Sometimes we look at our own internal things that are going on at Stellar and at Liquid Web. But my favorite thing is when we can reach out in the community and talk to community members about projects and things that they do within the community. And so I’m really excited today that we have somebody here with us who does things outside of Liquid Web. Of course. But first, let me introduce my co-host, my first time co-hosting with Chandni Ssirohi. And we actually got to meet each other face to face and spend some time together at WordCamp Asia recently. And that was a blast. It was awesome. Welcome, Chandni. Just take a quick second and tell everybody what you do with us at Liquid Web.
[00:01:01] Chandni: Thank you so much for having me, Michelle. So I am Chandni, everyone. Hi. I’m really glad to be here. I work as a customer success manager for one of the brands of Liquid Web under StellarWP called LearnDash. So what my job is exactly is to take care of new customers and customers who are interested in LearnDash. Bridge the gap, hear them out, see what they want, let them know what LearnDash is all about. And yeah, help them go to the other side.
So that’s what I do.
[00:01:37] Michelle: Success is so important, right? It’s more than just, it’s more than software. It’s actually people and helping them and their businesses be successful. So it’s so good to have you here, but I’d like to also introduce our guest today, who is Destiny Kanno. I’m going to read your bio, Destiny, and then I’m going to ask you deeper questions. So Destiny is the 2024 Make WordPress Training Team rep, BlackPress co-founder and head of community education sponsored by Automattic and also the WordCamp, one of the WordCamp, not the only one of the WordCamp Asia organizers for both 2023 and 2024. And I think that’s the first time you and I got to meet in person, was in Bangkok last year. So it was so super cool to see you there. So welcome to the show, Destiny. It’s so good to have you here.
[00:02:24] Destiny: Thank you so much for inviting me.
[00:02:26] Michelle: Yeah, I’m gonna have to get you on all my podcasts because I just enjoy talking to you so much.
But that’s another day. Today we’re here to talk about BlackPress and and how it all came about. But first, tell us more about yourself and what you do with WordPress.
[00:02:41] Destiny: Yes, thank you.
Let me take a step back. So what got me started with WordPress was kind of, I think by chance. So I was working at a digital agency and we had a couple projects where they were using WordPress. And I kind of looked at the back end, I’m like, okay, that’s that thing. But I didn’t really get a good understanding of WordPress until I joined Automattic in 2017 as a dot com Happiness Engineer.
And so that’s when my knowledge about WordPress really just like shot up because, you know, you have to understand WordPress if you’re going to help people, for sure.
But my journey through that took me to the community space in 2022.
Before that I was at WordPress VIP helping people, enterprise clients as a technical account manager.
But I say to everyone that, like, coming to our like.org side of things, just felt like coming home, the community space that’s there, getting to work with, I know everyone’s a real person, but it felt like more real people. You know, the business owners, the agency owners, you know, people really making a living off of WordPress, which is really impressive and made like, made me feel like it was a great space to be in. So when I first started, I was in developer advocacy and that was kind of not my forte. And that if you want to do that work, you need to know a lot of developers. And at that time I was new to the WordPress community. I did not know a lot of developers. So I transitioned into what we called a community education manager role and worked alongside the training team to help boost their goals and strategies for Learn WordPress and creating content for the WordPress community. And that was more my jam for sure. So I’m really excited to still be here with the team now as a co-rep, helping to lead that process even further with other contributors.
[00:04:50] Michelle: I love that. And you’re located in Japan?
[00:04:53] Destiny: Yes, I live in Tokyo, Japan. Come visit me.
[00:04:57] Michelle: I heard it’s beautiful.
Our boss, or my boss, Drew, Drew Griswold from StellarWP raves about how amazing Japan is. So hopefully someday I’ll get to Tokyo. He thinks it’s amazing.
I love your journey and I love the fact that I don’t think I’ve ever seen you not be positive, like, like maybe you’re not smiling 24/7 right? But that you always approach everything with such a positive attitude. So thank you for that.
[00:05:24] Destiny: Thank you.
[00:05:25] Michelle: We’re here to talk about BlackPress, though. So I’m turning that, I’m turning the next question over to Chandni.
[00:05:30] Chandni: Thanks, Michelle. I can really feel the positive vibes through the screen, like, wow.
So yeah, we would love to know all about BlackPress and, you know, how does it function within the WordPress ecosystem? I’m really eager to know about that. So.
[00:05:47] Destiny: Yeah, absolutely. So I got started with BlackPress as kind of like an offshoot work from our internal ERG employee resource group at Automattic called Cocoamattic.
And so that name always makes me laugh. I love, it’s awesome.
[00:06:06] Michelle: In a good way.
[00:06:07] Destiny: Just kidding.
But at the time I had a HR rep who is also very, very, how do I say, passionate about just building community and providing resources. And so we were like, how do we do, like, what we’re doing at Cocoamattic in the community space? So that’s how I kind of got intro’d into the community space and we started this initiative in Slack in 2020. And at first it was kind of like a big group of people, folks from the black diaspora and the community that were already doing things. And our initial goal was to really focus on the youth and see how we can bring more folks into WordPress at an earlier stage. And it was a very, a lot of it was pretty American centric because we were first targeting historically black colleges and universities, HBCUs. But we wanted to make sure it was global as well. So we had, you know, folks from Africa as well as North America, Europe kind of contributing. But for a bit, it didn’t, like, kick off in that way. There’s a lot of, like, hopes that it would, but it takes a lot. And we’re all volunteers, right, to get this kind of thing kicked off, we need connections with these schools as well. And so we kind of pivoted our focus to just, let’s just build a community first.
And that happened through showing up at WordCamps. I think the first time BlackPress had like a big WordCamp flagship WordCamp presence was last year, starting from WordCamp Asia. And then we tried to do something in Europe. Oh, actually, no, it was in Porto, EU. I had organized. Yeah, a mixer there as well. So that was the first time taking me down memory lane here.
[00:08:07] Michelle: That’s what, 2021, right? Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:10] Destiny: Was it 2022?
[00:08:13] Michelle: 2022, yep. Sorry.
Like all the years. So run together.
[00:08:19] Destiny: Yeah, I know they do. Oh, Covid.
But, yeah, that’s like when we felt like we are now in a real space, interacting with members, bringing people in. And I think that’s also, what started to kick things off, and we started hosting talks about BlackPress, meetup groups, and, yeah, in every flagship now we strive to have, like, a mixer, a community gathering, networking event. So we’re still very much focused on, like, building the community, bringing the people in, and please let me know if I’m. If I should, like, keep going.
[00:08:56] Michelle: No, that’s good. Keep going.
I’m, like, hanging on every word.
[00:09:02] Destiny: Okay.
And I. Right now, the co-organizers, their main focus is also, like, what other ways we can host events? So there’s been an uptick in, like, online events. We’re trying to do a bit more in marketing, just making sure people know about us. And I think that we’ve seen a lot of positive interactions with folks in the community as well in that regard. So that’s, like, our current focus.
I feel like I’m missing another part of your question, or maybe.
[00:09:38] Chandni: Yeah, that was amazing.
[00:09:41] Michelle: I want to talk about something that’s not even on the question list. So we haven’t brought this up before. So Allie Nimmons and I started Underrepresented in Tech several years ago, which, you know, and we started it up. And Nigel Rogers, who’s in Zimbabwe, love him. He’s wonderful. He’s like, this is awesome. This is great. I want you guys to come talk to my local meetup. Right? So we did the Zoom meeting and his meetup, and it was all these wonderful black gentlemen. I don’t think there was a woman in the room at the time. And so I go into my pitch, I talk about why we started it, how it’s, like, taking off, and one of the guys says, well, isn’t this for, like, minorities?
I go, well, yeah. He goes, you’re the only minority here.
All these people who were in Zimbabwe. Yeah. And I said, but globally, we’re talking about globally. So you bring up the idea that it was founded, started with the United States, historically black colleges, universities, and then went global. And there’s a little bit of a difference in how black people perceive themselves and perceive others within the diaspora. Right. So because of the African American experience here, too. So I just thought that was kind of interesting and how it must be a little bit different to kind of, like, clue into different groups around the world.
[00:11:05] Destiny: Yeah, absolutely. And that’s the struggle we have in Cocoamattic as well. We’re not monoliths. Right. In any culture or ethnicity or race. So being cognizant of that, we still want to build community. And you’re exactly right. Like, when I think the first time I went to predominantly black country, I was like, oh. Oh, okay. So, yeah, that life could be, could have been different if I was in a different situation.
But those are experiences that not everyone has as well. And so when we talk about it in the context of, you know, being global, but also trying to be aware of everyone’s own relativity and their own environments, we really try to hone in on the WordPress aspect and the lack of black presence in that.
And so when we take that also to, like, flagships, for example, that’s when, you know, you’re taken out of your predominantly black country, for example, and you’re in a space where there aren’t that many people that look like you. And so that experience, I think, is like the flip end. Right? And so we might not, of course, have come from the same background, but when we’re in that international stage and there’s less of us, we do get perceived a certain way.
[00:12:24] Michelle: And so do you get lumped together? Kind of. Right.
[00:12:27] Destiny: Like, when we get lumped togethe.
[00:12:29] Michelle: Whether you’re from Tokyo or Alabama or Zimbabwe, for sure, which is, it’s just an interesting experience, and it’s something that I’ve tried to make myself more aware of.
And I think that just like, being an ally within the BlackPress Slack channel has really helped me learn how to be an ally just by observing and trying to be supportive. So, yeah, so thank you for creating what you’ve created, because honestly, it’s like, it’s just amazing how global you all have become. And I think it’s pretty cool.
[00:12:59] Destiny: And just like, oh, sorry, no, go ahead. I was just, like, highlighting that intersectionality is really important as well.
[00:13:06] Michelle: I agree. And it really is.
It’s an honor to kind of sit on the sidelines and watch the work be done. It’s really cool. So you were one of the founders of BlackPress, and you talked a little bit about how it was formed and how it came together. What kind of support have you received within the black community and allies in general, and how has that helped move the needle forward? Or is it not moving fast enough? I’m making assumptions.
[00:13:33] Destiny: Yeah. I think right now, while we have plenty of lovely allies, yourself included, that have been helping just share opportunities, highlight folks like in podcasts or encouraging folks to speak at events locally or on a wider stage.
So just having that exposure, knowing people who know people is an important aspect as well. So we’re very grateful to our allies, and also we have folks who have donated website, like Godaddy, for example, that’s another way that some allies can just sponsor us in a way that will just help us to continue our activities as well.
And then from the black community, I think we have received a lot of just like, positivity and like, oh, I didn’t even know this kind of group existed from a lot of folks as well.
And when we were able to give back, it’s usually in the form of like some mentorship or, you know, guidance and support like that that I’ve seen currently within BlackPress. And that has been really, really fun to see as well, how we’re just helping each other grow, encouraging each other, acknowledging each other’s achievements as well. So there’s that in the space feeling of like, okay, I can’t be here and I can show up however I want to show up to.
I think that’s also important to know, like, you don’t have to come in, especially as a person who identifies as being from the black diaspora, as like, okay, I need to give something. Sometimes it is okay to just, you know, be present and that’s a big part of the community as well.
[00:15:19] Michelle: Yeah. As we call it in the cyber world, lurking. You can lurk. It’s okay.
[00:15:23] Destiny: You can lurk.
[00:15:24] Michelle: You can lurk. It’s all good.
[00:15:26] Destiny: This is a resource, you know?
[00:15:28] Michelle: Yeah, exactly. Everybody doesn’t have to give 100% all the time. That’s what it’s all about.
[00:15:33] Destiny: Yeah.
[00:15:33] Michelle: And you can support one another in different ways for sure. Sure.
[00:15:36] Destiny: Absolutely.
[00:15:37] Michelle: Yeah.
[00:15:38] Chandni: Yeah. And I love that, you know, I think feeling included, not being expected of something and just being present and I also love what you said about giving back in the way of a mentorship, learning experiences. I think that everything is wonderful and I’m so glad, Michelle, thank you for having me here on this podcast. Now, you know, Destiny, that brings me and I’m very intrigued about it. You know, I understand there is a lot of hard work, persistence, you know, patience that goes into building anything. So, I mean, what were the challenges, if any, you’ve had, I’m sure you did on the way to building this up and, you know, going through with it, because I understand it took a bit of time, which everything takes before it reaches everyone. So we would love to hear about it.
[00:16:36] Destiny: Yeah, absolutely. I think alongside the other co-founders, we had a lot of lofty goals and we’re like, we kind of set them without a lot of overall input from the community. We were just like, okay, we think this is what needs to happen, because this is just what we’ve seen, which isn’t bad, of course, but it did kind of limit how we could better engage with the people who are there and maybe involve them in some of the work as well. So I think a challenge was like, in some ways, just being okay with letting things go so that we can make space for what needs to actually happen. Like, we had this huge Trello board, and, like, there were things that just sat and we’re just like, okay, but does the community actually need these things, or do we think they need these things? So I think every community probably reaches this point where they’re like, okay, are we actually doing the right thing here? What needs to happen? Goal. Resetting, a full reset if needed.
And so that was one challenge that we had to overcome as well as just time for being honest, right? Because we’re all volunteers. And I finally, you know, was like, hey, I’ve been here for almost four years. At the end of last year, I need to, like, I need to be a lurker for a bit and see what’s happening and, you know, support from the inside, but without being in the organizer position.
And I think other folks have stepped down as well.
I think a challenge is just making, well, a challenge that we’ve overcome was like creating more documentation, supporting materials for onboarding people and in the organizing group, but then also within the community itself, like, last year, the new co organizers really helped to make the place a bit more, I guess, like organized. I really just say, and. But welcoming. So it’s like, hey, you know, these are the spaces where you can do this, and this is how we interact with each other. I think. Michelle, we actually borrowed from you the code of conduct as well. We didn’t even have that until last year, so there were certain things that we just needed if we didn’t stop, like the goals that we were trying to achieve, to take a step back and see how we can better serve the community as it is right now. It just wouldn’t have happened.
[00:19:09] Michelle: I think one of the greatest gifts that leaders in a group can give is the opportunity for others to step into that place and lead. And it isn’t an easy thing to do because your fear is that things will fall apart without you, because you were part of it, you built it. “It’s your baby” kind of thing, and that’s understandable. It’s normal, right? But to be able to step away from leadership and remain part of the community and entrust it to the next not generation, but the next set of people who are kind of stepping into those roles, it is a gift that you give to them, especially if you stay and you are part of the community that they are then leading. So kudos to you for being able to recognize leaders within the community that you could entrust the next steps to.
[00:19:56] Destiny: Yeah, yeah. And Ken, George, and Win. Just shout out, they’re doing an amazing job.
[00:20:02] Michelle: Win runs those, like, I think it’s a monthly meetup. I’ve made it to one so far.
And I’m just like, I’m just sitting there and waiting and say, oh, I have a resource. Because I’m like, it’s not my group to run, but I have things that I can offer to the group, of course. But she’s really organized. Holy cow, that woman is, excuse me, super organized.
And I noticed just this week, I can’t remember who did it, but I think it was Ken set, like, descriptions for all the channels, like, all these notifications on my phone, like, bing, bing. And I thought, wow, that’s so good. He’s doing such a good job. So they’ve taken, they’ve taken the baton and they take it very seriously, and they’re doing a great job. So. But you started that in order for them to be able to step forward. So nice job thinking about allies especially, but the whole WordPress community, what do you think that we can be doing better to support BlackPress and other special interest groups? I never know what the right word is for resource groups, interest groups, depending on where you are, the world, they call them different things. But what do you think that we can do to support BlackPress?
[00:21:11] Destiny: Yeah. So one thing that came up at WordCamp Asia was our opportunities channel. And also, I think there is a big awareness that anyone can join BlackPress as an ally. Right. So you can join our slack. You can lurk. But if you’re an ally who has opportunities, there’s a place where you can actually share those. So that could come in the form of, do you want to sponsor a speaker? Do you have some job openings? Do you have some networking events? Like, how can we increase the way that we engage with each other?
And I have seen some of these come through already, especially from you, Michelle. And you’re always up in the opportunities channel.
[00:21:56] Michelle: I try, I try. I love it.
[00:21:59] Destiny: But these are spaces. This is an open space where you can come and engage and listen.
I think a lot of the time when I’m in these conversations with folks who are like, yeah, love BlackPress, but what do I need to do show up is like one step, right?
And it’s also, I think, one of the hardest things about running these kinds of groups is that the folks that want to help, but they also don’t know how to share their resources in a way that doesn’t feel like the community itself has to ask for it in a certain way.
And so I think that’s where just coming in, showing up, asking questions, getting to know us, is a really good thing to at least start with. And then just floating like, what have you done for other groups? What have you done for maybe even your own employees that you could think you can extend? What are some services that are, that you would, wouldn’t mind sharing with the community so that we can grow our website, for example, our WordPress website.
Are there talks you want to put on? We’d like to try to host monthly meetups so that people can learn about a certain topic. Are there people that from your team have some certain expertise that would help us level up some of our folks in the community as well with different topics? Those are just a couple of ways off the top of my head. I think allies can really help us.
[00:23:39] Michelle: Understand, and I’ve seen allies be nervous. Right. And as a, especially in the United States, because we have such a politic, politicization, I don’t know the word. It’s such a political issue when it shouldn’t be, right. Human people should not be politics. But it is politics in the United States makes the black lives matter, movement, things like that. It polarizes in a lot of ways. So I know so many people that want to do good work and want to be allies and want to help, but they’re afraid because they don’t know what to do. And my advice is always, it’s not a black person’s job to teach you how to be an ally. That’s the first thing. So don’t come into BlackPress and expect that they’re going to teach you what they need, like they being the community.
I hate the word they. I don’t want to mean to “other” people when I use they, but that the community is going to teach you what it needs. You have to lurk. You have to learn. You have to do the work. And so that’s my advice to anybody who wants to come in as an ally, for sure, but read the room. And I’ve also witnessed in group discussions, white men walk in and just take over the entire conversation. And all the black people in the group are suddenly paying really close attention to their phones. So, like, read the room.
If you are not contributing in a positive way, there will be signs.
Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. But, yeah, I think that’s great. And I love that if people have opportunities to share, they should absolutely bring those forward because as I’ve often talked about, there’s room for everybody at the table and that when we really, diversity is great, but inclusion is better, in my opinion. Right. If we’re an inclusive society, my products, my community, everything I do at work is better because we have so many more perspectives who are lending their expertise and, you know, who are potential buyers. So you’re getting a much better representation of who your entire audience is if you are inclusive of all the people that are, that want to be there. And so that’s the best way I can think of to help even the playing field and be, and make sure that more people have a voice.
So, yeah, thanks for the opportunities.
It really is an honor to be able to be an ally in BlackPress and be able to put those opportunities forward.
[00:25:58] Chandni: So, yeah, I’m definitely joining the community for sure.
[00:26:04] Destiny: Yeah.
[00:26:05] Chandni: So is there anything you’d like to share with us, Destiny, with our audiences? Something you want to, something I didn’t ask you? Yeah.
[00:26:17] Destiny: Something I want to share. Oh, I don’t know.
[00:26:24] Michelle: I thought you had this big thing. You’re like, oh, I thought you were going to be like, this is the thing and. No, it’s okay.
[00:26:29] Destiny: Oh, is it like something, like everything you want, anything?
[00:26:33] Chandni: Yeah.
[00:26:33] Michelle: If there’s anything about the group, anything we haven’t asked you about that you think that would add to this conversation?
[00:26:38] Chandni: Yes.
[00:26:39] Destiny: Okay.
Well, I’m pretty certain for WordCamp, US, we’re trying to wrangle something together. So I would say keep an eye out for that.
Hopefully for Canada as well. TBD on that.
And yeah, there’s also, I think, some community member highlights that are getting kicked off again. So we, in the past, Allie Nimmons was helping to put a spotlight on certain members in the community, showing off their skills and what they’re doing in WordPress. So we’re pretty excited to see that that’s kicking off again. So if you, I think you can subscribe to our website. If you haven’t yet, please subscribe.
[00:27:29] Michelle: Like, I think so.
[00:27:29] Destiny: Smash button or smash that, like, button.
[00:27:32] Michelle: Oh, now you sound like a YouTuber.
[00:27:33] Destiny: Yeah, I know, right? I do.
[00:27:35] Michelle: Ring that bell.
[00:27:36] Destiny: Ring that bell.
So that should be upcoming too. And I don’t know, I get excited. We can highlight our members and learn more about them.
[00:27:45] Michelle: Absolutely. And one of the things that I’ve always said is not about throwing money at groups. However, that being said, there are people who need sponsorship to WordCamps as speakers and organizers. That is a good use of your money. That is a good use of your resources. Pay attention. If there are people who need help, that is a good way to spend your money. And the other thing I always say is it’s not your job to tell people that you sponsored somebody. It’s their job if they want to say whether or not they were sponsored, because their finances are nobody’s business but your own, but their own.
Keep that something between the two of you if you do choose to sponsor somebody. For sure.
[00:28:21] Destiny: Absolutely.
[00:28:23] Michelle: So how do we find BlackPress online? I think on social media, it’s online. And then how do we find you if people want to follow up and follow you?
[00:28:33] Destiny: Yes. So the best way to find BlackPress and all of our affiliated social media is at BlackPress.
From our site, you can also join our Slack group, and we should have some link outs to our LinkedIn group, Twitter and Facebook.
I would say probably the LinkedIn group and Twitter are more active, but Slack is the number one active spot. And the way to get involved and chat with me and Michelle and Chandni going forward. Absolutely.
And then for myself, you can find me also on LinkedIn at Destiny Fox Kanno, and also on Twitter. Even though I’m really bad at the Twitter and all those things TheeDestinyWP.
[00:29:26] Michelle: Perfect. I can’t thank you enough for being here today, spending some time with us. I love that we can talk to each other over the computer around the world and be able to have these conversations. So, yeah, so thank you so much for being here. Chandni, thank you for being my co host today with the great questions and the newest member of BlackPress, apparently so that’s a great thing, too.
I love it.
[00:29:49] Destiny: Thank you for having me. Thank you.
[00:29:51] Michelle: Absolutely. So if anybody’s interested in all of those links to all of the things we’ve talked about will be on the show notes for this episode, go to StellarWP.com/podcast. Find this episode with Destiny. All the links will be there along with a transcript of today’s episode. So thank you, my friends, for spending some time with me tonight. Really appreciate you. And, yeah, we’ll see everybody in the next episode of WP Constellations.
WP Constellations is a production of StellarWP, home of The Events Calendar, LearnDash, GiveWP, Kadence, Iconic, SolidWP, Orderable, and Restrict Content Pro. Learn more about the StellarVerse at StellarWP.com.