also, tapping should be removed from hints and such in the pc version.

and cutscenes should be skippable.

visibility is also an issue with ♥♥♥♥ covering the ball and the course.

and a bug, had to restart the hole. also ended up in a weird position on the previous level with the windmill at the end, had to restart, forgot to take a screenshot.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3009187890

and another bug: pressing esc during your logos brings up a settings window without any text or icons. it should simply skip said logos. and the intro shouldn't play every single time the game is started.

and more: a bunch of trip 2 levels let me leave even though a few pieces were still white.

Thanks for the great feedback!

The nature of the game's locked POV angle (it actually can't rotate because the game isn't 3D) meant that code logic was required to cover all areas where the ball rests to ensure the ball was always on screen and to compose the frame to show the required path. There are however, as you've noticed, a few places where you need to see beyond, to time the stroke. Initially, zooming (mouse wheel/shoulder buttons) was the way to view the whole diorama (and still is the recommended method). Camera scrolling was added later for an intuitive QOL alternative, but as is often the case, the smallest of changes has the habit of inviting exponential issues :/
If we add a feature to disable the cam scroll reset, you'll likely be losing a lot more than you're gaining. Use zoom control, that's cleverly weighted too :)

"Tapping" - fair point.

Cut scenes - can be skipped using the restart hole button (top right) or the R key/ Y joypad button.

Ball visibility - a circle should show when behind scenery. But I can see it's doing that in your screen shot when the ball should be visible, so it's related to the bug.

Will look into the utopia hole bug, very odd. It thinks you've already crossed the water. I hope I can recreate it.

Esc key during splash bug - nice catch! Marked this for the next update.

Trip 2 white objects - very surprised. We nailed that long ago. Will keep tabs on this, thanks!

I don't mind a fixed view, the less fiddling with the camera (in any game) the better, but you gotta make sure it doesn't get in the way of visibility and playability. making objects transparent has been a thing for decades because the current outline is not always good enough, plus as I said it's not just the ball, which is pointed at by the ui, but what's around it (there was an annoying section with a round path and statues or something on the railing, couldn't see where the ball would go).

as for zooming, it's not the perfect solution either with an auto-following camera. I played all zoomed out (and was annoyed when continuing a run later reset the camera to zoomed in) but even then the camera kept going back and forth instead of staying put and it wasn't always centered on the ball either, so didn't feel consistent. granted, those were ridiculously bad shots, so most of my shots, but it made the whole thing all the more annoying. and sometimes the camera can't even keep up with the ball.

and why would you let cutscenes only be skippable with the restart button? nobody's gonna press that because a, common sense and b, esc and left click works elsewhere (well, esc not really on startup).

I'm sure we're not gonna agree on level select in the other thread but at least some of this stuff's gonna get fixed at some point, that's good.

Originally posted by Dohi64:

I'm sure we're not gonna agree on level select in the other thread but at least some of this stuff's gonna get fixed at some point, that's good.

We could hope Wonderputt Forever does well enough for either a DLC course pack which might allow the main campaign to receive a significant update or the game does well enough for a third entry in the future which could have the options we wanted in Forever. We just have to wait and see what comes down the pipeline.

For now though we just have to either keep trying or just give up on the collectibles and just play casually hole-to-hole, chase high scores, or speed running.

Observing play testers is always so surprising. Some found the zoom essential, while others would keep it zoomed out at all times. But some would forget that they had done so and lose out on the directed focus that the zoomed camera gives and then feel lost with where to go. So the game reverts to default zooming. This is a great example of the wrestling that goes on in game design. There's just no way of being able to have your cake and eat it, and that's one of the toughest pills to swallow as a developer.

The camera zooming back and forth is purely for the animated transitions between holes.

Regarding the skip cutscene thing - The hole restart button just so happened to do this by its very nature, so we didn't have to code yet another UI button and clutter the interface. As for the icon and confirm message, a choice has to be made about what is to be communicated and how much without overwhelming, confusing and diluting info. Consolidation is often the best choice for the sake of the majority. Admittedly, that makes it a hidden feature if players don't connect the dots. Compromise eh. Curse that cake paradox!

you can have and eat most cakes in games by providing options. set defaults to whatever you think is best for the average customer that doesn't bother with settings and let others customize things for a better experience.

a clutterred ui is what I keep hearing about, except for some devs even a single item makes things cluttered, absolute nonsense. and for skipping cutscenes there's no need to add another button, just make space and esc work like it does in every game ever (except here and a bunch of others that don't let you skip ♥♥♥♥).

Esc is assigned to Settings, but with Spacebar currently assigned to Advance, that could work as a Skip. But this adds the risk of players advancing through the menus into the game and accidentally skipping the course intro. Every addition adds fire risk, it's a minefield.

Re clutter - It's certainly an interesting conversation. Apple have built their UX ethos around UI consolidation, ergo a plethora of hidden features, and that most certainly doesn't suit everyone :)

another option would be not to repeat cutscenes on replays. gave up on trips 3 and 4 after a while but wanted to reach rank 8 to try relic mode (it was disappointing the way it works but that's a different matter). finishing both trips would've probably done it but I found it quicker, easier and less stressful to replay the first 3 holes of the first course for thousands of points instead of getting 200 after 35 attempts at trip holes, except there was absolutely no need to see the intro every single time. to avoid accidents, you could add a toggle to not show cutscenes, no need to skip anything.

and I don't think apple's anything should apply to a properly designed and working pc game, even if it's a 'minimalist' one also available on mobile.

All perfectly valid observations, but considering the animated transitions are the main hook of the Wonderputt series and the alternative relic mode disappoints, perhaps this just isn't your cup of tea, which is totally fine :) It's a very popular genre so there's very likely other minigolf games that are much more suited to your requirements/expectations. I've really been enjoying Walkabout Minigolf VR!

I liked the transitions, elaborate ones on the main courses and quick ones on trips, but I shouldn't have to watch relatively lengthy cutscenes every single time I play a hole, least of all the intro before any transitions happen. the game wastes more than enough time without proper level select, don't add more to it.

and relic mode would be fine but the energy penalty means grabbing all the dna cores isn't enough and even then the 'reward' is an animal silhouette becoming a non-silhouette. so it's too much hassle for nothing.

and unfortunately, most games are developed poorly and lack basic functionality, so it's hard to find a decent mini-golf as well. I don't play in vr or multiplayer but have a few unplayed ones. some will surely disappoint like this, so far only a little golf journey was good enough.

Making Relic mode a simple collect-all task would put most players at a 100% score which devalues the leaderboard. The additional energy factor rewards players for working out unique routes when compared to those required in Par mode. Saved animated Relics also populate the main menu island and combos unlock cosmetic items. Hope this clarification helps.

don't care about cosmetics or leaderboards, just want to enjoy the game on my own. if online, leaderboards are useless anyway, there are always cheaters. some people care enough to do that but not enough to actually achieve something, just like with achievements.

the main menu thing is neat (and either not mentioned in the game or I missed it) but I only bothered with the first animal without proper level select. I could easily have my cake and eat it too but you didn't design the game that way.