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Databook stuff[]
From the databook:
- Having found out that the origin of Jugo's power was the Ryuchido, Orochimaru concluded that the Curse Seal's natural shape was "Senjutsu".
- In Jugo's village, the state after invoking the power of Senjutsu is referred to as "Sage Transformation".
• Seelentau 愛 議 02:26, July 13, 2015 (UTC)
WTF is "natural shape" supposed to mean? Natural state? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:39, July 13, 2015 (UTC)
- The word used there is 正体 shōtai, meaning "natural shape; one's true colors; one's true colours; true character; identity; true identity". • Seelentau 愛 議 02:59, July 13, 2015 (UTC)
- I don't really understand it.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 13:25, July 13, 2015 (UTC)
- It's basically what the manga told us: Orochimaru found out that Jugo's power comes from the Dragon Earth Cave and concluded that it nothing but Senjutsu. The Curse Seal is basically artifical Senjutsu, with the Sage Transformation being a "wild" version of the Sage Mode. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:30, July 13, 2015 (UTC)
- I don't really understand it.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 13:25, July 13, 2015 (UTC)
Oh, so nothing new then. If you have Jugo Clan's body, you transform into that instead of ordinary Sage Mode, right?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 13:42, July 13, 2015 (UTC)
- If you can't control it, yes. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:44, July 13, 2015 (UTC)
Sage Transformation is not Sage Mode[]
The Databook says it gives the user the ability to use Senjutsu, but doing Senjutsu alone is not what Sage Mode is. We see clear, defined differences between the two transformations (from power output, to appearance, to drawbacks and everything). Classifying Sage Transformation as Sage Mode is just downright dishonest and misleading.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:58, May 20, 2018 (UTC)
- Currently, I do not have a position in this Sage Mode/Transformation debacle, however, this was discussed here, with Tau claiming the databook affirmed the exact opposite of what you are saying and thus both techniques are the same (with him making the respective edit), and this brought up again by you after the discourse died off, and now you are reviving it once more. From re-reading the previous consultation, I am curious, since again, I haven't taken a side: what new evidence did you encounter from the last time that refutes Tau's claim? ★WindStar7125
06:40, May 20, 2018 (UTC)
- Basically the usage between the two techniques within the manga itself. Sage Transformation was always shown to be woefully inferior to Sage Mode itself, which required intense training to achieve. Sage Transformation doesn't share any traits at all with Sage Mode itself, it doesn't balance the three energies, it doesn't have the 'turn into an stone animal if you fail to balance the energies', and basically was introduced as the lesser of the two transformations. Being classified as a Senjutsu does not make it a Sage Mode transformation, much like being classified as a dojutsu doesn't make the Rinnegan, Byakugan, and Sharingan the same thing. In essence, the techniques have shown wild differences, and a throw away comment from Jugo, who had never seen Sage Mode, shouldn't be classified as gospel.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 08:08, May 20, 2018 (UTC)
- SupperSaltyMan in a nutshell: 'I don't like what the manga and databooks say, so I'm gonna ignore those and invent my own headcanon and force it onto others' What the hell don't you understand? If those with Jugo's KKG enter Sage Mode, their bodies undergo Sage Transformation. Look, there's a bunch (or at least there was, now there's just Jugo that we know of and those with his power) of people, a clan that has 2 special powers. 1st is that their bodies passively absorb natural energy. 2nd is that they have some fancy bodily fluids, which react to natural energy. So when they go Sage Mode, Sage Transformation happens as a side effect of those fluids. Also it has been stated literally nowhere that Sage Transformation is inferior to Sage Mode... it can't be, because Sage Transformation IS Sage Mode and more, if anything, it's superior. How great of a buff Senjutsu is depends on a user's strength of his/her chakra, meaning a weak individual reaps lesser benefits from Senjutsu, compared to a stronger individual.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 09:28, May 20, 2018 (UTC)
- I mean you're right, Sage Mode is not the same thing as Sage Transformation. Sage Transformation is a method to attain Sage Mode. That's why the articles haven't been merged. But there are still flaws in your arguments: If we go by the "weaker version isn't the same", then Konohamaru's Rasengan during the Pain invasion would be a different jutsu than Naruto's Rasengan. Also, you keep ignoring that there's not always just one set way to attain something: Sasuke got his Mangekyo Sharingan because he realised Itachi was a good guy, not because he watched him die, like Obito did with Rin. And last but not least, you throw in things you can't possibly know, like "Jugo, who had never seen Sage Mode". So overall, your argument is pretty weak. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:59, May 20, 2018 (UTC)
- @SuperSaiyaMan: That looks like the exact same line of reasoning you had last time. Reiterating yourself is not going to strengthen your case.
- @Elveonora: Come now, we don’t need to resort to name-calling.
- And it’s also evident from the demarcation in your arguments that the superiority/inferiority between the techniques can be subjective. They both have advantages and disadvantages. ★WindStar7125 16:58, May 20, 2018 (UTC)
- I mean you're right, Sage Mode is not the same thing as Sage Transformation. Sage Transformation is a method to attain Sage Mode. That's why the articles haven't been merged. But there are still flaws in your arguments: If we go by the "weaker version isn't the same", then Konohamaru's Rasengan during the Pain invasion would be a different jutsu than Naruto's Rasengan. Also, you keep ignoring that there's not always just one set way to attain something: Sasuke got his Mangekyo Sharingan because he realised Itachi was a good guy, not because he watched him die, like Obito did with Rin. And last but not least, you throw in things you can't possibly know, like "Jugo, who had never seen Sage Mode". So overall, your argument is pretty weak. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:59, May 20, 2018 (UTC)
- SupperSaltyMan in a nutshell: 'I don't like what the manga and databooks say, so I'm gonna ignore those and invent my own headcanon and force it onto others' What the hell don't you understand? If those with Jugo's KKG enter Sage Mode, their bodies undergo Sage Transformation. Look, there's a bunch (or at least there was, now there's just Jugo that we know of and those with his power) of people, a clan that has 2 special powers. 1st is that their bodies passively absorb natural energy. 2nd is that they have some fancy bodily fluids, which react to natural energy. So when they go Sage Mode, Sage Transformation happens as a side effect of those fluids. Also it has been stated literally nowhere that Sage Transformation is inferior to Sage Mode... it can't be, because Sage Transformation IS Sage Mode and more, if anything, it's superior. How great of a buff Senjutsu is depends on a user's strength of his/her chakra, meaning a weak individual reaps lesser benefits from Senjutsu, compared to a stronger individual.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 09:28, May 20, 2018 (UTC)
- Basically the usage between the two techniques within the manga itself. Sage Transformation was always shown to be woefully inferior to Sage Mode itself, which required intense training to achieve. Sage Transformation doesn't share any traits at all with Sage Mode itself, it doesn't balance the three energies, it doesn't have the 'turn into an stone animal if you fail to balance the energies', and basically was introduced as the lesser of the two transformations. Being classified as a Senjutsu does not make it a Sage Mode transformation, much like being classified as a dojutsu doesn't make the Rinnegan, Byakugan, and Sharingan the same thing. In essence, the techniques have shown wild differences, and a throw away comment from Jugo, who had never seen Sage Mode, shouldn't be classified as gospel.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 08:08, May 20, 2018 (UTC)
Ten Tails Jinchuriki is Sage Transformation[]
This line, "The term "Sage Transformation" (仙人化, Senninka) can also refer to the transformation into the jinchūriki of the Ten-Tails." doesn't hold. There is no mention of Sage Transformation in Chapter 667. Littlegen (talk) 03:11, September 4, 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, there is. Check the raws. Dunno why Viz put Sage Mode instead of Sage Transformation.--JOA20 04:42, September 4, 2018 (UTC)
- bUt ViZ iS oFfiCiAl So It MuSt Be CoRrEcT • Seelentau 愛 議 05:01, September 4, 2018 (UTC)
- It's actually chapter 666 where Madara says the line about "Sage Transformation". But yeah, strangely both Viz and scanlators chose to translate it as Sage Mode for some reason.--BeyondRed (talk) 06:53, September 4, 2018 (UTC)
- Funny, even the english anime refers to it as Sage Mode. Episode 415. Littlegen (talk) 10:46, September 5, 2018 (UTC)
- Shows that you should always double-check your information, huh. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:03, September 5, 2018 (UTC)
- Funny, even the english anime refers to it as Sage Mode. Episode 415. Littlegen (talk) 10:46, September 5, 2018 (UTC)
- It's actually chapter 666 where Madara says the line about "Sage Transformation". But yeah, strangely both Viz and scanlators chose to translate it as Sage Mode for some reason.--BeyondRed (talk) 06:53, September 4, 2018 (UTC)
- bUt ViZ iS oFfiCiAl So It MuSt Be CoRrEcT • Seelentau 愛 議 05:01, September 4, 2018 (UTC)
Sage mode/Transformation[]
How exactly am I confusing sage mode with Sage transformation? Cameron Washington (talk) 02:02, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- This is literally what was talked about in the previous topic. Also, the other "Sages" are from Six Paths chakra- not from absorption, etc. In Kabuto's case, this was already well discussed in his page, as the process is similar to Orochimaru gaining Sage mode. Also your changes are very massive and unnecessary.
-Ventillate { 👤 | 💬 | 🔧 }
02:57, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
“ This is literally what was talked about in the previous topic. Also, the other "Sages" are from Six Paths chakra- not from absorption, etc.”. Where are you getting the word absorption from? And what other sages are you referring to? Cameron Washington (talk) 03:05, 26 April 2024 (UTC) OK, I can see by other sages, you were talking about Madara and Obito. But their bodies did transform and are able to freely use nature energy so it’s obvious to me that they count as users of this. And what makes you think that my edit was “unnecessary”? Cameron Washington (talk) 03:15, 26 April 2024 (UTC)