Anime-Novel Differences[]
I feel like this is something we should have now with the amount of novels that have been adapted in the anime. I'd make a page myself, however, I have not read the novels, nor would I know specifically where the changes are in the novels. OmegaRasengan (talk) 14:42, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone would be against it. The issue is finding someone who wants to do it, complete it and then others to further verify it isn't just nonsense. Munchvtec (talk) 15:42, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
Movie novelisation issues[]
So, recently an user went around adding novel debuts to every article that had a movie debut, but not a novel one, on account of the movie each having a novelisation. While that might be technically correct, those additions incur some issues. One of them is that at least some of the article subjects only have movie debuts over the movie very briefly featuring flashbacks to anime scenes where they appear. While identifying these in a movie is just a matter of looking and seeing the character in a quick flashback, that doesn't work for the novelisations. Those don't have pictures, which would make it necessary to actually know if the movie novelisation feature those subjects, or even makes mention of them, and that is hard because if Wikipedia is correct, none of the movie novelisations ever had English releases. More pressing in my opinion, is that in marking them as having novel debuts, subjects start appearing in infoboxes them shouldn't. For example, from the second Shippūden movie, Chidori Light Sword shows up in Sasuke's, Chidori Current's, and Sword of Kusanagi: Chidori Katana's; Guts Rasengan and Tornado Rasengan show up in Rasengan's and Naruto's. As non-canon movie subjects, these shouldn't be "bumped up" to appear in manga/anime infoboxes. Most other light novel subjects appear in those because we know them to be part of the chronology, as detailed in this article's session about it, and few that aren't, like "Innocent Heart, Demonic Blood", "Mission: Protect The Waterfall Village!", and the Boruto ones are adapting manga and anime already. Lastly, blanket addition of novel debut to these subjects would essentially making their movie status redundant. The best way to avoid these issues, as far as I could tell, is simply not to list novel debuts for movie stuff that shows up in movie novelisations. I suppose it could be possible to try updating the infobox in same way to tell the difference, like it was done when The Last and Boruto were shown to be canon, but it doesn't seem worth it to make the infoboxes even more complicated for just this. Please do comment and make suggestions. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 06:53, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- I'd argue that game/movie/novel debuts should be removed entirely from the vast majority of the wiki's articles. Games/movies/novels are not sequential works in the same way that chapters and episodes are, so to, for example, list Naruto as debuting in the Snow movie is misleading because he technically "debuts" in the other eight movies as well. I think the wiki would be better off only listing game/movie/novel debuts in cases where that's the first appearance of the topic in any media, maybe with occasional exceptions for cases like Mui. So Naruto would only have a manga and anime debut and nothing else, Hinoko would have a novel and anime debut, Toneri would have a movie and anime debut. In cases like Naruto's where this involves removing appearances from the infobox, those appearances are often better-documented in the actual article: he has a subheading for each movie/novel that he appears in, and there's a list of every game that he's playable in. The media tags wouldn't need to be removed I don't think, but their presence or absence shouldn't really matter for smw purposes.
- If that proposal is unappealing, I'd support disregarding novel-adaptations of movies for debut/media tag purposes; since the wiki isn't in the practice of considering those novels distinct enough for their own articles, it shouldn't be treating them as distinct enough to warrant listing in infoboxes. ~SnapperTo 11:03, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Snapper2 Though I think removing game/movie/novel debuts completely is a slightly radical approach to it, I do understand the frustrations that are accompanied with it from which you mentioned. However, I am in total support of completely disregarding novel-adaptations. It's unnecessary and just isn't significant enough in my opinion to really hold up a spot on an infobox. I don't think movie-based novels really differentiate themselves from the movie itself, since it's just a physical/e-copy of scripts or the general storyline. If anything it just confuses people more on the idea of a novel debut when the movie did exactly that for the character. As I'm open to a more simplistic approach to handling infobox data associated with novel debuts, I think removing it entirely is the better way of going about it. In terms of game/movie debuts, I feel as though those should remain. My issue with games debuts in particular is the licensing behind it, and how directly they are involved with Kishimoto or the Naruto franchise in general, but that's another topic for another day.
-Ventillate { 👤 | 💬 | 🔧 }
20:59, 3 August 2022 (UTC)- Most wikis do one of two things when it comes to fictional topics: list only the very first work the topic appears in, or list every single work a topic appears in (as in the first release, its sequel, the third in the trilogy, the seven books of the expanded universe, the remake, etc.). This wiki is trying to do something in the middle, listing the first of several different media types that a topic appears in, even when a later, unlisted appearance is much more informative on the topic.
- I don't see the benefit of this practice. Why is it valuable to know that Lee appears in Konoha Ninpōchō? He isn't playable, which I assume is what readers are more interested in knowing when looking at "video game debut". Or that Jiraiya appears in the Land of Snow movie, which is apparently such an insignificant role that it doesn't even warrant description in his article. Or that Madara is "mentioned" in Kakashi Hiden; cool, I guess, but it ultimately adds nothing to my knowledge of Madara as a topic.
- If the wiki only focuses on a topic's first appearance within the series as a whole, I don't feel the wiki loses anything meaningful. ~SnapperTo 23:29, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know much on the discussion that went behind it, but regarding playable characters, we do have the specific templates for those. Playable characters always appear, but not all appearing characters are playable. For example, Hashirama and Tobirama first appeared in whatever game that first featured them as Edo Tensei, but were not playable themselves until later, and there's also the caveat of support-only characters. As far as "mentioned" goes, I suppose that can easily be removed, specially if a character does "appear" later on. Kinda like when Itachi was talked about for a long time before actually appearing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:06, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
- I don't mind an actual appearance regardless if they are playable or not, since they are technically "debuted" in a game, but as far as mentions go, it shouldn't be there. Back to light novels for movies though, we should basically undo all the edits made by MayorovAndrey in terms of the debuts. I can't really see a reason to keep it.
-Ventillate { 👤 | 💬 | 🔧 }
03:12, 9 August 2022 (UTC)- The practice predates his edits by several years; see The Last and Boruto movie.
- I suppose using minor debuts of major characters distracted from my point, so I'll use Naruto instead. Naruto is the main character of the series, and as such will generally have a major role in any work he appears in. My question is not whether Naruto's appearance is meaningful within the work itself, but rather why do the individual debuts need to be documented in his infobox at all? What is the inherent value in knowing which novel/ova/game/movie he appeared in first, given that those are his third/fourth/fifth/sixth "debut" within the series as a whole? The wiki's insistence on displaying first appearances for every media type creates clutter in the infobox, invites occasional headaches as in the current discussion of are-novel-adapatations-of-movies-debuts, and I can't conceive of a scenario where the information would be useful enough to readers to justify bothering with it. ~SnapperTo 04:21, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
- What you're saying makes sense, and bringing up Naruto himself was a pretty clear-cut example of it. However, I think this would scope beyond Naruto on the different kinds of media characters' debuts. I'm not saying this would always be the case, but maybe Shino's first game debut would interest people in finding and playing the game where he originally appeared? I'm not saying that it's necessary, but it does serve as a good referral point for viewers/editors who are interested in a character debut for a media rather than go through the trouble of finding it in an external source. Just my thoughts on it really.
-Ventillate { 👤 | 💬 | 🔧 }
20:37, 9 August 2022 (UTC)- Shino's first movie and game appearances are communicated via the dedicated movie and game sections of his article. If there's a game where a character only appears as an opponent or assist option, that's something that should be conveyed in this dedicated section regardless of it being the first appearance or not, because the infobox has no way of noting that. Novel appearances aren't as easy to pick out since they're mixed in with animanga summaries, but a hypothetical reader who wants to know which novel the character appears in first can still do so without the infobox. ~SnapperTo 22:45, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
- For the purposes of what I started this topic, the The Last and Boruto examples aren't that appropriate either, because those two movies actually are part of the continuity, the entire point of the "movie canon" option being added in the first place. Their stuff would show up in infoboxes regardless of having novel debuts. The issue that MayorovAndrey's edits exposed is movie stuff showing up where it shouldn't over the "bundling" of a novel debut. I'm not opposed to other reductions of debut information in infoboxes, I just need a clearer understanding of what stays and what goes, and why. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:09, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Shino's first movie and game appearances are communicated via the dedicated movie and game sections of his article. If there's a game where a character only appears as an opponent or assist option, that's something that should be conveyed in this dedicated section regardless of it being the first appearance or not, because the infobox has no way of noting that. Novel appearances aren't as easy to pick out since they're mixed in with animanga summaries, but a hypothetical reader who wants to know which novel the character appears in first can still do so without the infobox. ~SnapperTo 22:45, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
- What you're saying makes sense, and bringing up Naruto himself was a pretty clear-cut example of it. However, I think this would scope beyond Naruto on the different kinds of media characters' debuts. I'm not saying this would always be the case, but maybe Shino's first game debut would interest people in finding and playing the game where he originally appeared? I'm not saying that it's necessary, but it does serve as a good referral point for viewers/editors who are interested in a character debut for a media rather than go through the trouble of finding it in an external source. Just my thoughts on it really.
- I don't mind an actual appearance regardless if they are playable or not, since they are technically "debuted" in a game, but as far as mentions go, it shouldn't be there. Back to light novels for movies though, we should basically undo all the edits made by MayorovAndrey in terms of the debuts. I can't really see a reason to keep it.
- I don't know much on the discussion that went behind it, but regarding playable characters, we do have the specific templates for those. Playable characters always appear, but not all appearing characters are playable. For example, Hashirama and Tobirama first appeared in whatever game that first featured them as Edo Tensei, but were not playable themselves until later, and there's also the caveat of support-only characters. As far as "mentioned" goes, I suppose that can easily be removed, specially if a character does "appear" later on. Kinda like when Itachi was talked about for a long time before actually appearing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:06, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Snapper2 Though I think removing game/movie/novel debuts completely is a slightly radical approach to it, I do understand the frustrations that are accompanied with it from which you mentioned. However, I am in total support of completely disregarding novel-adaptations. It's unnecessary and just isn't significant enough in my opinion to really hold up a spot on an infobox. I don't think movie-based novels really differentiate themselves from the movie itself, since it's just a physical/e-copy of scripts or the general storyline. If anything it just confuses people more on the idea of a novel debut when the movie did exactly that for the character. As I'm open to a more simplistic approach to handling infobox data associated with novel debuts, I think removing it entirely is the better way of going about it. In terms of game/movie debuts, I feel as though those should remain. My issue with games debuts in particular is the licensing behind it, and how directly they are involved with Kishimoto or the Naruto franchise in general, but that's another topic for another day.
- I phrased my lesser proposal in a way that would apply to the non-canon movie/canon movie/Boruto arc/Demonic Blood novels: "since the wiki isn't in the practice of considering those novels distinct enough for their own articles, it shouldn't be treating them as distinct enough to warrant listing in infoboxes." I don't know why the Waterfall novel has an article because its article gives the impression that it's mostly the the same as the OVA, but so long as it keeps its article then my proposed justification wouldn't apply to it. ~SnapperTo 02:57, 14 August 2022 (UTC)